PCGS coins VS. NGC coins on the NGC REGISTRY - fair competition?

[yonico]

 

 

I've been thinking about making this post for a while, to get some answers to questions that bothered me about the NGC registry. After making a few comments on this subject under other posts (sorry JimBucks!) I think It needs to have its own post. 

This post may be long as I have a lot of questions/arguments on the subject, I have a problem expressing my opinions clearly/shortly, and I tend to mumble now and then - but PLEASE read it carefully and try to understand the points I'll (try to) make before commenting on this post. There will be some opinions mixed in with facts so please don't bash me if I get something wrong. 

 

Though i usually use the NGC registry to organize and display my collections only, and not in the competitive way, i know many collectors that take the competition very seriously (it gotta be fun). I, for example find early wheat cents and IHC more attractive and natural-looking in BN and RB rather than RD, so my penny collection wouldn't grade that high if I decided to put it up. Also, some designations (like the FS on Jefferson nickels) are "worth" more points, even though they don't necessarily mean a better/fuller/stronger strike - so if you do compete, sometime you ave to give up a nicer coin (that appeals more to you), in order to climb up the ranking chart. But that's for another thread.

I do have to say that I find the "custom sets" section very helpful and interesting. There are some AMAZING sets in there that would get the highest rank in my point-scale.

 

 

- PLEASE NOTE: this is NOT a rant or criticism of any kind. I do like the idea of the registry.

It is just my observation and looking for opinions and thoughts on this subject from registry users. That's all. I would love to hear your opinions and perspectives, and please explain why do you think so or otherwise. Thanks!

 

 

 Many will add a coin to their registry set before they even examined it carefully in hand (or before they even got it in the mail). People follow the members below and above them on the registry closely, and NGC will even let you know how many points you lead by, and how many more points you need to get up to the next rank.

 

PCGS won't allow any other TPG graded coins on their registry. Their registry sets are made of 100% pcgs graded coins. Sone say they're being "snobby" and think much of themselves, but it might be the only way to have a real, fair competition going on.

NGC accepts PCGS coins on their registry, and while i think it's nice, some problems occur to me with this arrangement.

PCGS/NGC clearly have different grading standards, and while I won't discuss the technical (plain numerical) grades they give - because there's no way to do that, really - there are some other differences between PCGS and NGC graded coins on the NGC registry that make me wonder if the competition really is fair. 

 

===============

* If NGC stated that they fully trust PCGS grading standards and accept them "blindly" - then maybe they should have "automatic crossover" from PCGS - where they will cross ANY coin from PCGS to an NGC holder without examining the coin in hand before.

 

* if NGC stated the DO NOT fully trust PCGS grading standards, and will NOT accept them blindly - maybe it's not fair to automatically award the same score for an PCGS MS65 Morgan as they give an NGC MS65 Morgan of the same date.

===============

 

 

Right??

 

 

 Let's see:

 

 

STAR COINS - "NGC assigns a * To coins with exceptional eye appeal for their assigned grade" (NGC website)

NGC also adds extra registry points for star coins. That means that the SAME EXACT coin will be worth x amount of points in a PCGS MS65 holder, but y points in an NGC MS65*.

I understand that the star is worth 1/3 more points of the gap between the coin's current grade and the next grade.

(MS65 = 1,000 / MS66 = 2000 - - - >  MS65*= 1,333

 

That's a big difference and it makes it impossible (for example) for an all-PCGS set of toned coins to beat (or even match) the score of an all-NGC toned coins set, even if they're of same quality or EVEN IF THEY'RE THE SAME COINS and they all crossed over at the same grade.

 

 

 

PL coins - this is one of my favorites. 

PCGS only gives Morgan Dollars The PL or DMPL designation (Here's from their website),

 

  

 Proof Like (PL) - Morgan Dollars.

 

Clear reflection in the fields on both sides from 2-4 inches away.

A misty effect or striations may impede the reflectivity.

Deep Mirror Proof Like (DMPL) - Morgan Dollars.

 

Clear reflection in the fields on both sides from at least 6 inches away.

2. Must be full, undistorted reflectivity on both the obverse and reverse.

 

While NGC will award the designation to ANY mint state coin that displays these features.. Here from NGC:

  

PL, DPL - any mint state coins, esp. Morgan dollars

 

 

Now it is not NGC's fault that PCGS won't grade DPL quarters, but it is a fact that a prooflike quarter is worth more points in an NGC holder than in a PCGS holder, although being the same exact coin. 

 

(by the way, I'm not 100% sure that a PL coin gets more points in the registry, and how much more percentage-wise, but it makes no difference to the argument; if it does get more, it's obviously a problem. If it doesn't, it's also a problem, cause why would it get the same points as a Normal MS coin..?)

 

 

FULL STEP JEFFERSONS - we know NGC has 2 different designations for "Full Steps", the 5FS and the 6FS. PCGS just has "FS" - from PCGS's website:

  

Full Steps (FS) - Jefferson Nickels. MS60 or better, at least five complete steps must appear on Monticello. Any steps that join or fuse together, whether created that way or subsequently damaged, cannot be considered for the Full Steps designation.

 

 

 

 

Now I'm not 100% sure about that (input from members here will be great), but it seems like NGC automatically enters PCGS FS coins as "5FS" in the registry, never as "6FS".

The PCGS guide clearly states that in order to get that designation, AT LEAST 5 steps must appear, but it is safe to say that many PCGS FS coins display 6 full steps, right? If there are AT LEAST 5, it means there are 5, or 6 full steps in PCGS's opinion.

If NGC automatically calls all of PCGS's FS coins simply "5FS", it means that one coin, with 6 full steps, will be worth MORE points in an NGC holder than in a PCGS holder - though being the same exact coin. I understand NGC cannot examine each coin in hand when registered into the registry, and I have no suggestion as to how to do it differently, but it is still an issue.

 

 

FBL FRANKLINS - the grading standards for FBL designations is VERY different between NGC and PCGS. Not a little different, or technically different - it's a whole new standard.

 

From PCGS website:

  

Full Bell Lines (FBL) - Franklin Half Dollars. MS60 or better. Must exhibit complete, uninterrupted lower lines on the Liberty bell.

 

 

 

 

So PCGS requires only the BOTTOM set of lines to be full and uninterrupted, while NGC requires BOTH sets of lines to be full in order for the designation to be awarded.

That's a huge difference and you can see how big the difference is if you checked the census pop report for FBL halves out of total coins graded.

 

Then, why do PCGS FBL get the same score as NGC FBL..?

 

A coin with only the bottom set of lines complete, will be worth say a 1,000 points if graded by NGC, and maybe 1,500 points if graded by PCGS!

 

1. Does it encourage collectors to send their frankies to PCGS if they want a higher ranking set on the registry? Maybe.

 

2. If all PCGS FS coins are being automatically called "5FS" by NGC, even though they might be "6FS" - why accept the PCGS FBL coins as FBL, even though it is known that some of them are not up to NGC's standards..?

 

 

As the last point, many other designations might have different standards at NGC and PCGS, but still getthe same point score on the registry.

While not being a MAJOR problem, I just think it hurts the competitors and the fairness of the competition.

PCGS have very specific grade guides for cameo, deep cameo, RD/BN/RB designations, here:

  

Cameo Proofs (CAM) - 1950-1970 Proof Coinage.

The obverse and reverse must exhibit devices which are at least lightly frosted and create a contrast with the fields.

 

Frostiness on the devices may be heavier yet contain areas where the frost is lacking or brilliance is evident.

A coin that exhibits Deep Cameo attributes on one side and Cameo attributes on the other side is considered only a Cameo.

Deep Cameo Proofs (DC) - 1950-1970 Proof Coinage

 

Heavily frosted devices on both the obverse and reverse, with no areas of the main devices unfrosted.

Heavy contrast between the fields and devices.

Copper Coinage -

 

BN - Brown – less then 5% original red color

RB – Red and Brown – between 5% and 95% original red color

RD - Red – more than 95% original red color

 

 

And I think I can safely say that NGC's, if not totally different, are definitely not THE EXACT SAME.

 

 

Even if you don't agree with everything in this post, I hope it at least made you think about the subject.

 

So what are your thoughts? 

which do you think is better: the ALL-PCGS registry or NGC's  NGC/PCGS ONE?

Any ideas on how can NGC address these issues? Suggestions?

 

If any,What coins will you get ONLY in a PCGS holder and not in NGC, and vice versa? And why?

 

All comments welcome, I just want to try and keep it clean/calm.

 

Thanks!

 

[newprepper]

I think that was very well put together, I'm not sure on the technical aspects of what you say, I'll take your word for it. As far as the registry goes, I see no reason to exclude PCGS. However, I would agree to a limit, like 1/3 of PCGS coins in the registry, after all this is an NGC site. And if they wanted too, assign a modifier if you go over the 1/3, maybe the points for the excess coins reduced. They could do many things, now that you have pointed out the flaws, I can see some people figuring a way to increase their points using what you said

[Keigwin]

I have a problem expressing my opinions clearly/shortly, and I tend to mumble now and then

Hadn't noticed.

 

Registries are a game. Don't take them so seriously.

Lance.

[yonico]

I think that was very well put together, I'm not sure on the technical aspects of what you say, I'll take your word for it. As far as the registry goes, I see no reason to exclude PCGS. However, I would agree to a limit, like 1/3 of PCGS coins in the registry, after all this is an NGC site. And if they wanted too, assign a modifier if you go over the 1/3, maybe the points for the excess coins reduced. They could do many things, now that you have pointed out the flaws, I can see some people figuring a way to increase their points using what you said

 

I guess they, too, realized that it is actually an NGC website, because they added an "NGC ONLY" filter to the registry that allows you to view the ranking of NGC-only-coins sets.

 

Like I said, I can't really think of an way to solve all issues, but I think NGC has to come up with SOMETHING. giving PCGS coins the same score (and sometimes favor PCGS, like on FBL Franklins) doesn't seem to be a good advertisement or encouragement for collectors to use NGC as their first TPG service..

[yonico]

I have a problem expressing my opinions clearly/shortly, and I tend to mumble now and then

Hadn't noticed.

 

Registries are a game. Don't take them so seriously.

Lance.

 

Thank you. English is not my first language so Sonetimes I just can't really put into words what I really want to say. That's what I meant.

 

And I know. I don't take it very seriously (like I said, I like collecting BN and RB coppers even though the registry considers them "lesser" quality coins), but some collectors take it VERY seriously. That's what the post was for.

I've seen some of my customers pass on MS67RB beautiful Lincolns with superior strikes, for a dull, not eye-appealing 67RD.

It has gotten even worse since AU50/53/55/58 are now getting different scores, and how many times have we seen AU53 that looked better than a 55?? Still doesn't matter, they want the label that pushes them farther up

Though I don't agree, I can understand..

[Keigwin]

Suppose the coins were ranked by market value. Would that feel better?

Lance.

[coinsandmedals]

I tend to agree with Lance, the registry is a game that should be seen as a form of enjoyment. Collectors have the opportunity to display their collection, their knowledge, and their passion. Coin grading is very subjective and what one TPG may say is a 65 could be a 64 in the eyes of another, at the end of the day it shouldn’t matter what the paper label reads it should matter what the owner thinks and feels the coin is. I enjoy a friendly competition (not much of a competitor at the time) but at the end of the day it’s meant to be fun, my philosophy behind the registry is to enjoy yourself, build your collection and adapt your collecting goals to meet larger scale collecting needs. I have found myself lately very interested in world coins, and as most of you know NGC will no longer except PCGS graded world coins in the registry, I still buy the coins I need regardless of the plastic. I buy the coin and if it happens to be eligible for the registry then so be it, if not then it doesn’t matter because I’m still making progress toward my initial goal of completing the series with high quality coins.

[Bruceswar]

The registries are kill or be killed up at the top. I think Regardless of what a number on a slab says the top coins will stand on their own merits.

 

 

[yonico]

Suppose the coins were ranked by market value. Would that feel better?

Lance.

 

Not really, since a 1912-S Lincoln cent has a higher market value in RD than in RB.

I can't win

[yonico]

I tend to agree with Lance, the registry is a game that should be seen as a form of enjoyment. Collectors have the opportunity to display their collection, their knowledge, and their passion. Coin grading is very subjective and what one TPG may say is a 65 could be a 64 in the eyes of another, at the end of the day it shouldn’t matter what the paper label reads it should matter what the owner thinks and feels the coin is. I enjoy a friendly competition (not much of a competitor at the time) but at the end of the day it’s meant to be fun, my philosophy behind the registry is to enjoy yourself, build your collection and adapt your collecting goals to meet larger scale collecting needs. I have found myself lately very interested in world coins, and as most of you know NGC will no longer except PCGS graded world coins in the registry, I still buy the coins I need regardless of the plastic. I buy the coin and if it happens to be eligible for the registry then so be it, if not then it doesn’t matter because I’m still making progress toward my initial goal of completing the series with high quality coins.

 

Totally agree with you, but most of the registry users won't. That was my point

[yonico]

Agreed @ Bruce.

Still for those who do use the registry and do give the rank and score top priority, some of the score system seems unfair. Oh well

[Kurtdog]

I have a problem expressing my opinions clearly/shortly, and I tend to mumble now and then

Hadn't noticed.

 

Registries are a game. Don't take them so seriously.

Lance.

Translated: When you think, that's when the trouble starts.

[Keigwin]

I tend to agree with Lance, the registry is a game that should be seen as a form of enjoyment. Collectors have the opportunity to display their collection, their knowledge, and their passion. Coin grading is very subjective and what one TPG may say is a 65 could be a 64 in the eyes of another, at the end of the day it shouldn’t matter what the paper label reads it should matter what the owner thinks and feels the coin is. I enjoy a friendly competition (not much of a competitor at the time) but at the end of the day it’s meant to be fun, my philosophy behind the registry is to enjoy yourself, build your collection and adapt your collecting goals to meet larger scale collecting needs. I have found myself lately very interested in world coins, and as most of you know NGC will no longer except PCGS graded world coins in the registry, I still buy the coins I need regardless of the plastic. I buy the coin and if it happens to be eligible for the registry then so be it, if not then it doesn’t matter because I’m still making progress toward my initial goal of completing the series with high quality coins.

 

Totally agree with you, but most of the registry users won't. That was my point

I think most registry users would agree, and only a small percentage are so intensely focused on their rankings that they allow themselves to get worked up over nuances in the system.

Lance.

[Mozin]

There is a considerable difference in grading of some series between PCGS and NGC, other series not much difference. The prices at auction usually shows this difference.

 

If NGC were to decide to not allow PCGS coins in their US Registry, like they did for World coins, there would be a mass exit from the NGC Registry. This was very obviously the case when NGC decided to drop PCGS coins from their World Registry.

 

Many of us enjoy the PCGS Registry and the NGC Registry just as they are. No need to fix anything because it is not broken.

 

Sure, I get excited about moving up a rank, and I can handle someone else jumping in with a new set that beats me out. I has to be fun or the Registry is not the place to be.

 

I do appreciate the time and effort it must have taken to start this thread. Nice job.

[Kurtdog]

If NGC were to decide to not allow PCGS coins in their US Registry, like they did for World coins, there would be a mass exit from the NGC Registry. This was very obviously the case when NGC decided to drop PCGS coins from their World Registry.

Never thought of it like that. Plausible.

[mkman123]

I feel NGC should make people have at least 51% of the coins in their registry be NGC coins. Reason is I dislike seeing collections that are 100% pcgs. Heck, go put that on the PCGS registry.

[Keigwin]

I feel NGC should make people have at least 51% of the coins in their registry be NGC coins. Reason is I dislike seeing collections that are 100% pcgs. Heck, go put that on the PCGS registry.

Why? Don't you enjoy seeing the best coins, regardless of holder?

 

If you only want to view registries that are entirely NGC-graded coins can't you use that filter?

Lance.

[mkman123]

Lance I feel its like disrespectful. Imagine walking into Popeyes with KFC chicken

[Keigwin]

. I guess if Popeyes says "bring your KFC here!" it wouldn't be disrespectful.

Lance.

[mkman123]

HHAHAHA, Lance, at least the courtesy thing is to have some popeyes chicken with your KFC

[Mozin]

I feel NGC should make people have at least 51% of the coins in their registry be NGC coins. Reason is I dislike seeing collections that are 100% pcgs. Heck, go put that on the PCGS registry.

Why? Don't you enjoy seeing the best coins, regardless of holder?

 

If you only want to view registries that are entirely NGC-graded coins can't you use that filter?

Lance.

 

NGC very recently started this NGC COINS ONLY filter. For Capped Bust Half Dollars, the number one Registry Set is way above my third place set. The owner decided some months ago to simply buy the very best coins, no matter which holder. He now is also ranked number one when using the NGC filter. The set contains 77 coins.

 

I decided to pull my NGC coins from my Capped Bust Half Dollar NGC Registry, and rename the set stating ALL PCGS COINS. My third place ranking did not change. When I then started a new set stating ALL NGC COINS, my ranking drops to position ten. Note that pulling all my NGC coins from my combined set did not change my ranking. Yes, I have a lot of duplicates.

 

One might also note that the NGC Registry coins required within a given coin series may well be slightly different from the coins required in any of the PCGS sets for that series. For Bust series coins PCGS has a lot more sets from which to choose, or choose them all.

 

PCGS Registry also has the Everyman Sets, composed of only circulated coins, one of the reasons PCGS 58 graded coins have become more costly to buy.

[newprepper]

So conceivably if they came out with a junior set called less than AU they could drive up the price of those also, interesting

[Keigwin]

There aren't very many competitors in the PCGS CBH Everyman's registry. My set can be improved and yet it's tied for first place.

 

Maybe this set influences the price of AU halves. I like to think it's because high AU CBH's are very sweet. Just a touch of wear and usually more attractive than MS60-63.

 

Stepping up to 64 and above is a lot more expensive.

Lance.

[BillJones]

I feel NGC should make people have at least 51% of the coins in their registry be NGC coins. Reason is I dislike seeing collections that are 100% pcgs. Heck, go put that on the PCGS registry.

Why? Don't you enjoy seeing the best coins, regardless of holder?

 

If you only want to view registries that are entirely NGC-graded coins can't you use that filter?

Lance.

 

I agree.

 

To me the PCGS registry is weaker because it excludes NGC coins. There are some very nice coin in NGC holders, some of them the finest know of their kind, so their sample limited and flawed. Their PCGS only policy is reason why I don't participate over there.

[jom]

Who cares what TPG grades the coins? The best coins are the best coins regardless of what grading company entombed the piece. Many of the best known coins have been in both holders at one time or another...

 

I find this whole registry thing absurd anyway. I rather just view some of the photos from people's sets right here on the boards.

 

jom

[Coinbuf]

Great question and lots of interesting replies. As one that does have competitive sets as well as one showcase set, I really dont see a problem with most of the current ranking criteria guidlines. In your example in most cases in the market a RD coin brings more than a RB coin in the same date/mm so it only makes sense that the RD designation is more sought after thus more valuable. Trying to base a registry point system off of eye-apeal would be a nightmare as what you call eye candy I might turn away from. Point in case I am not a huge fan of tarnish so toined coins are not a big turn-on for me where thay might be for you, so how would anyone ever be able to agree on a points system baised on this?

 

Personaly I would like for NGC to only give registry awards baised on the NGC only rankings, its cool and ok that thay allow PCGS graded coins to be in the registry; I have many PCGS holdered coins too; but I do feel that those coins should be excluded for awards. Or perhaps an honorable mention registry award where the PCGS coins are included in the scoring. That way we would still have the ability to see all the great coins from both service's plastic but not be handing out awards to PCGS only sets which can and does happen at times. And just in case some may think I'm pushing this system to have winning sets myself, I have looked at my rankings with the NGC only filter and while some sets would rise none would move up to a #1 spot, except for my current #1 set which would not be affected.

[gmarguli]

* If NGC stated that they fully trust PCGS grading standards and accept them "blindly" - then maybe they should have "automatic crossover" from PCGS - where they will cross ANY coin from PCGS to an NGC holder without examining the coin in hand before.

 

* if NGC stated the DO NOT fully trust PCGS grading standards, and will NOT accept them blindly - maybe it's not fair to automatically award the same score for an PCGS MS65 Morgan as they give an NGC MS65 Morgan of the same date.

 

What would stop PCGS from intentionally putting coins in their slabs at very overgraded grades, having them "automatically crossed", and then sent back to NGC under the grade guarantee? It'd be a pretty easy way for PCGS to put NGC out of business.

[yonico]

* If NGC stated that they fully trust PCGS grading standards and accept them "blindly" - then maybe they should have "automatic crossover" from PCGS - where they will cross ANY coin from PCGS to an NGC holder without examining the coin in hand before.

 

* if NGC stated the DO NOT fully trust PCGS grading standards, and will NOT accept them blindly - maybe it's not fair to automatically award the same score for an PCGS MS65 Morgan as they give an NGC MS65 Morgan of the same date.

 

What would stop PCGS from intentionally putting coins in their slabs at very overgraded grades, having them "automatically crossed", and then sent back to NGC under the grade guarantee? It'd be a pretty easy way for PCGS to put NGC out of business.

 

Ok so you gave a reason to eliminate the first "if" in my question. We're left with the second part of it, all the same frustrating..