So what are these on this 1943 cent?

[Kurtdog]

OBVERSE

Look at the neck just above the tie. Do you see that part protruding out from the neck? That's not an optical illusion. If you're seen many 1943 cents, you've seen it. As far as I know, it's unique to some 1943 cents. What is it?

 

REVERSE

That thing that looks like a chip on the T in CENT. That's not unique to 1943 cents. But, I can't imagine it's a chip, as that part of the die is flat. So, what is that?

 

This is another coin that's going to trade in my kid's coin club, and they're just that inquisitive. They gave their grades, and now they're asking about these.

 

I brought them along good, didn't I?

 

Thanks.

[e1cnr]

I think the obverse neck issue is die clash with the N of Cent

[Kurtdog]

They do seem to line up as a clash of the N when you see it in that orientation. Good, thanks. Going on that theory we can call that a marker on that OBVERSE die, then.

 

Now, on that T on the REVERSE, do you get what I'm saying on it? That's a flat, incuse area on the die. That's why that can't be a chip. What's more, it's not unknown on the Ts on other cents, too, although to varying degrees. And, it's just seen on the Ts, it doesn't form on the other letters, far as I've seen. We're curious what it is and why it forms just there.

[Conder101]

A clash mark doesn't make a good marker because if another obverse die clashes with its rev die, the chances are quite good that it will receive a similar or even identical clash mark. Also the die is not identified well because it wouldn't identify it before the clash, not would it identify it after the mark fades. Combined with other markers it can identify a specific die stage of a given die.

 

I can't tell too much from the picture but if the mark on the T is incuse it could be caused by damage or a dent to the surface of the T on a working hub. And since the rev hub does not have a date it can be used in more than one year and will produce multiple dies that will all create coins that show that dent. To me it almost looks like it has both a raised and an incuse component. That could result from an impact to a working hub that dug into the T and pushed up a ridge. As before that hub would create multiple dies which would also create many coins, possibly in multiple years.

[Kurtdog]

That's a raised lump of excess metal on the T. It's seen on some copper cents, too, albeit to varying degrees. Far as I know, it appears only on the T. When I get off, I'll see if we have any photos of it on our copper cents, maybe then you'll be able to nail it down.

[e1cnr]

the raised areas on letters are chips that came out of the die

 

the can be seen on most coins

they are very early die problems that can lead to breaks and die failure

 

a famous 'dot' is on the reverse of the 1875 cent

the N of ONE has a raided dot supposedly put on the coin to catch a thief

 

you always need to think in reverse and about how the minting process works, to understand how the die relates to the finished product seen

[messydesk]

I'd have to look at both artifacts in person, but the line on the obverse does look like a clash. The lump on the T could very well be a die chip, and if so, it's likely related to the clash.

 

If you line up the obverse and inverted reverse in an overlay, the lump lines up with the edge of the beard. Now this edge didn't come in contact with the T on the die, as the T is recessed, but a clash would mean that the fields came together right of the T, while the field left of the T was protected by the incuse portrait on the obverse die. Since the obverse die is slightly convex (coin is slightly concave) the edge of the beard would have been the first thing to hit the die. This clash could have strained the die in the middle of the T, causing it to crack. Think of taking a hammer and bashing something strong but breakable with the hammer slightly not square to the thing being bashed. The "bashee" will break first close to where the hammer hit first. Subsequent strikes would have irritated the die further with metal flow, eventually resulting in a chip.

[Kurtdog]

I'd have to look at both artifacts in person, but the line on the obverse does look like a clash. The lump on the T could very well be a die chip, and if so, it's likely related to the clash.

 

If you line up the obverse and inverted reverse in an overlay, the lump lines up with the edge of the beard. Now this edge didn't come in contact with the T on the die, as the T is recessed, but a clash would mean that the fields came together right of the T, while the field left of the T was protected by the incuse portrait on the obverse die. Since the obverse die is slightly convex (coin is slightly concave) the edge of the beard would have been the first thing to hit the die. This clash could have strained the die in the middle of the T, causing it to crack. Think of taking a hammer and bashing something strong but breakable with the hammer slightly not square to the thing being bashed. The "bashee" will break first close to where the hammer hit first. Subsequent strikes would have irritated the die further with metal flow, eventually resulting in a chip.

OK, this is interesting. Let me summarize it, so you know I got it. Correct me if I goofed.

 

The right edge of that beard, i.e., the point at which the beard meets the field, is the "knife" that dug into that T when these dies clashed together. The T is incuse on the die. How is it that edge was able to dig so deeply into that incuse T as to leave a depression therein which would ultimately manifest on the coin as a chip? Answer, the dies helped that out, as they're "bowed out," i.e., convex. When those convex dies "kissed," that helped that edge dig that much deeper into that flat, incuse area on the T.

 

BTW, I'm really appreciative of you guys taking the time to help me out on this. This is no money question. It's rather a question that's meaningful to collectors who want to learn a darn thing or two about how to appreciate coins. That's all I try to do with these kids, cultivate that capacity. So far, in case you want to know, we're making good progress. I'll tell you how I know that. They have more questions now than I have answers.

[messydesk]

Pretty much. Either that edge hit the spot inside the T or it caused enough die strain there that it cracked the die inside the T without hitting it -- tearing it instead of cutting it, because there isn't much evidence of a strong clash around the T, just the break inside. The clash may have worn off the die, but a crack or break won't.

 

Explain that the die steel has to be harder than the planchet being struck, and then challenge the kids to come up with a way to demonstrate it using stuff from the pantry. I recommend carving some dies out of raw potatoes and making some clay planchets (flour, water, salt, oil). Clashing the potatoes will leave clash marks and possibly die breaks. When making the coins (and clashes), make sure to slam the dies together hard. A long sweet potato should work nicely, as you can grip it with both hands and get a really strong strike. You might need to oil the potato so the coin doesn't stick. Bonus exercise: after making a few coins, explain what a broadstrike is and see if they come up with a way to fashion a collar die out of part of a plastic cup.

 

I haven't tried any of this, but it should work fairly well -- or at least be fun. Post pics if you do this.

[newprepper]

Forget the kids, I might do this myself, why let them have all the fun?

[Kurtdog]

Pretty much. Either that edge hit the spot inside the T or it caused enough die strain there that it cracked the die inside the T without hitting it -- tearing it instead of cutting it, because there isn't much evidence of a strong clash around the T, just the break inside. The clash may have worn off the die, but a crack or break won't.

 

Explain that the die steel has to be harder than the planchet being struck, and then challenge the kids to come up with a way to demonstrate it using stuff from the pantry. I recommend carving some dies out of raw potatoes and making some clay planchets (flour, water, salt, oil). Clashing the potatoes will leave clash marks and possibly die breaks. When making the coins (and clashes), make sure to slam the dies together hard. A long sweet potato should work nicely, as you can grip it with both hands and get a really strong strike. You might need to oil the potato so the coin doesn't stick. Bonus exercise: after making a few coins, explain what a broadstrike is and see if they come up with a way to fashion a collar die out of part of a plastic cup.

 

I haven't tried any of this, but it should work fairly well -- or at least be fun. Post pics if you do this.

John, I'm getting worried about you, you think like me. I did a lot of such fun demonstrations with these kids when they were younger. They're bigger brats, now (affectionately-speaking). Junior High School and High School. I should have explained. Anyway, I've given away some of my collection to some of these kids, and I still do that. All I insist on, I want to see a capacity to appreciate the coins. So far, so good. The introspection attendant to the hobby when one really has one's head in it is good for young kids, too, generally, I think. I mean, when they can put away their cell phones for a couple of hours, you know you reached them with something good.

 

Have to get off and get some shut-eye, now; got a big meeting tomorrow morning.

[messydesk]

OK, but you still have to post pictures.

[Conder101]

The T in cent is relatively narrow and I seriously doubt you are going to get the edge of the beard to fit down inside that narrow slot and cause damage to the flat bottom of the slot without doing serious damage to the edges of the slot up where it meets the field.

[Kurtdog]

Here's another one we have with the same clash and the same "chip" on the T. The pictures aren't the best but you can make out what's going on on this coin. Look at the first U in PLURIBUS and note that small die crack that isn't on the first coin. I suppose that says this reverse die is a later-state of the die that struck the first coin. Anyway, this makes two. I suppose it was expected these errors would repeat, though.

[Kurtdog]

The T in cent is relatively narrow and I seriously doubt you are going to get the edge of the beard to fit down inside that narrow slot and cause damage to the flat bottom of the slot without doing serious damage to the edges of the slot up where it meets the field.

That might be explained in the convex relationship of the dies. If they're convex and facing the impact is going to be distributed differently than were they oriented perfectly level. One sure thing is, this does simulate a chip. It's raised on both coins. If we're going to go on that theory, something dug into those Ts, right at that spot, as incuse areas on dies don't chip without some such intervention.