Looking for opinions - Not Genuine - 1927 $2.5 Dollar Gold

[nemo656]

This coin, which was in my father’s collection for 30 – 40 years, came back as not genuine. I do trust the experts at NGC. But I would like to know more about their determination for my own edification. The coin weighs 4.1 grams and I have compared the details of the coin to one I have (a 1926) in my collection graded by NGC (an AU-50). The coin looks identical to my graded one. The only detail I did not check is the diameter. (don’t have a good caliper) But it does look to be the exact same size being held over the one that is slabbed.

 

Can anyone point out any details that might lead to a Not Genuine determination?

I will attach some photos.

 

Thanks

Have a great day

Jim

[FishyOne]

I don't see it, but I'm no Indian gold expert either.

 

Here's a genuine piece in AU55 for reference.

 

[nemo656]

Thanks FishyOne for the photo. I have a 1926 one to compare the coin to and don't see any difference. But I do notice one thing in your photo that is ever so slightly different in the photo I posted. Look at the stars on the obverse at 2 - 3 o'clock. The stars in my photo are farther from the rim than the stars in your photo. If I get time at the end of the week I will try and bring the coin to my local coin store and ask him to measure the diameter to get an exact number. I'm sitting here scrolling back and forth and other than the stars, which is so very subtle, I don't see any difference. I'm by far no expert in this series just a casual collector. Thanks again!

 

Jim

[mkman123]

Anyone wanna chime in? Feld, TomB, rwb, billjones, etc? I don't see it either

[nemo656]

I got tired of scrolling so I put the images together. Not Genuine is on top, and the Genuine photo is on the bottom..... Still shaking my head over this....

 

Jim

[physics-fan3.14]

I'm not an Indian expert by any means, so I don't really know what I'm looking for. They make some very convincing fakes, however, so it very well could be.

[BillJones]

Let me start by saying that the differences between the genuine piece and the counterfeit are subtle. It takes experience and, yes, some talent to note the differences between the two, but here goes.

 

1. Note the sharpness. The details on the counterfeit are soft and mushy, especially the areas that are in the highest relief of the design. I don't know the technical name for that part of the headdress, but look at the feathers that cover the Indian's ear. They are much sharper on the genuine piece than the counterfeit. Once you have noted this feature compare the other details. You will see that the facial details and other aspects of the counterfeit are not as sharp.

 

The reason for this is that the fake dies were made from a genuine coin. When the genuine coin is used the highest details are usually lost or less sharp. Weaker detail is one of the tell tale signs of a counterfeit

 

2. Note that the digits "27" in the date, "1927", are strong than the "19" on the counterfeit. The digits are the some strength on the genuine piece. I would surmise that the counterfeiter made a matrix die with all of the features of the piece with the last two digits in the date left off so that he could produce other dates with the same general set of tools. In this case the two added digits were entered into the fake dies more distinctly than the first two numbers.

 

3. Note that the surfaces appear grainy and dull on the counterfeit while they are more lustrous and fresh on the genuine piece. If you look at the counterfeit with a strong (10X) glass, I dare say that you will find "lumps" in the fields which you won't find on a genuine coin. One of the tricks that counterfeiters are now using is to make their pieces look circulated which can hide this problem with their work.

 

The fact that this piece was in your father's collection for 30 to 40 years does preclude the fact that it is a counterfeit. Counterfeiters were making U.S. gold coins in Lebanon in the 1960s, and those pieces were a big problem for U.S. collectors back then. Such pieces would have continued to be in numismatic circulation until someone flagged and removed them from the market. I know this because as a "young numismatist" in the 1960s I was scared stiff of counterfeits and only bought gold coins from expert dealers I trusted. It cost me more because of the sources I used, but it was worth it.

 

[Coindude]

Nemo, the good news is that the counterfeit is most likely made of gold.

[MarkFeld]

To me, the most conspicuous feature of the counterfeit is the overall weakness of the Indian's face.

[PerryHall]

Bill gave a good summary. After you've seen enough coins within a series, after awhile the bad ones just don't look right when you first see them. These incused coins frequently have tooling at the back of the Indian's neck in the most recessed area of the coin. When the counterfeiter casts his false die, small air bubbles can be trapped in this deepest recess of the coin's surface and the counterfeiter will need to tool this area or there will be raised pimples on the coin in this area. I can't quite tell from your pic but there is a light area at the back of the Indians neck which may be a tooled area.

[delta]

One difference easily visible is how the top of the number 2 in the denomination is joined to the eagle's platform.

[JIM F.]

It would be nice if the TPGs would at least indicate if the coin were made of gold, but I guess a jeweler could determine that. If one had a counterfeit and sold it for gold, it might be wise to deface it to prevent it from re-entering the coin market.

 

 

[jimjum12]

It could be the difference in scale from one image to another....but the word "LIBERTY" appears to be a slighty larger point size on the genuine article. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[jom]

I don't know if this helps. But the only think I could notice is that the internal detail (inside the incuse portion) of the lettering in for example "In God We Trust" doesn't seem to be the same as the genuine piece.

 

I was going to show a photo of one I owned but it really isn't large enough....I'll see what I can do.

 

jom

[Mary B]

Look at the eagles head and especially the eye detail. There is a difference.

[mkman123]

These fakes are really well made and the differences are so subtle!! There has to be another way for us to figure out the fakes

[nemo656]

Wow! Lots of great info here! Thank you so much for all your replies. I've learned a lot from this thread. Just because a coin has been in a collection for 30+ years means nothing, Because counterfeiting has been haunting us since the dawn of coinage. I will take the coin to my local coin store and ask him to see if he can tell if it is at least made of gold. I will make sure that THIS coin does not re-enter the market no matter what it is made of.

 

Thanks again for all the great info!!!

 

Have a great day

Jim

[e1cnr]

The incuse coins should be well struck at the deepest parts showing all detail. When they wear, these deep parts are protected and still should show great detail.

 

Buying raw gold is a very risky proposition, unless you have seen many gold coins and know exactly what they should look like.

 

 

This is a very good reason to buy certified already gold, if you pay any premium over melt.

[nemo656]

I went back and re-read all the posts. I think the KEY for this coin is in the EDGE VIEW photo I took. I didn't notice it till it was pointed out by one of the posters. Look at the edge view photo I took and look close at the 27 in the date. The 19 is weak and the 27 is strong and looks very different when the coin is viewed at an angle. So who ever did the counterfeiting most likely made a die with only the 19 and left the last two digits off to be added later. Very Very interesting coin to examine. Once again thank you for all the great replies.

[Coindude]

Let me start by saying that the differences between the genuine piece and the counterfeit are subtle. It takes experience and, yes, some talent to note the differences between the two, but here goes.

1. Note the sharpness. The details on the counterfeit are soft and mushy, especially the areas that are in the highest relief of the design. I don't know the technical name for that part of the headdress, but look at the feathers that cover the Indian's ear. They are much sharper on the genuine piece than the counterfeit. Once you have noted this feature compare the other details. You will see that the facial details and other aspects of the counterfeit are not as sharp.

The reason for this is that the fake dies were made from a genuine coin. When the genuine coin is used the highest details are usually lost or less sharp. Weaker detail is one of the tell tale signs of a counterfeit

2. Note that the digits "27" in the date, "1927", are strong than the "19" on the counterfeit. The digits are the some strength on the genuine piece. I would surmise that the counterfeiter made a matrix die with all of the features of the piece with the last two digits in the date left off so that he could produce other dates with the same general set of tools. In this case the two added digits were entered into the fake dies more distinctly than the first two numbers.

3. Note that the surfaces appear grainy and dull on the counterfeit while they are more lustrous and fresh on the genuine piece. If you look at the counterfeit with a strong (10X) glass, I dare say that you will find "lumps" in the fields which you won't find on a genuine coin. One of the tricks that counterfeiters are now using is to make their pieces look circulated which can hide this problem with their work.

The fact that this piece was in your father's collection for 30 to 40 years does preclude the fact that it is a counterfeit. Counterfeiters were making U.S. gold coins in Lebanon in the 1960s, and those pieces were a big problem for U.S. collectors back then. Such pieces would have continued to be in numismatic circulation until someone flagged and removed them from the market. I know this because as a "young numismatist" in the 1960s I was scared stiff of counterfeits and only bought gold coins from expert dealers I trusted. It cost me more because of the sources I used, but it was worth it.

Bill, I just wanted to take a quick moment to thank you for being a part of our community. I have greatly appreciated your openness and insight on many topics here.

 

I recently thanked Mark Feld for being one of my unknown and unseen mentors and I wanted you to know that I consider you in the same breath.

 

WE are so lucky to be able to speak with numismatists like you two guys. Just think, in the 50's, 60's and 70's, you seriously had to pay your dues to the hard knocks club. Unless you lived near a very knowledgeable numismatist, you were pretty much out of luck. Now we get to share knowledge across the world.

 

When I was a bit younger I thought I knew a lot about coins, you guys prove to me on a daily basis how much I have to learn.

 

Thank you Bill, Mark, and so many others here on the board. I just thought it was important for me to say.

[RockMyAmadeus]

The most telltale sign I can see is the bustline. Note the bustline on the not genuine example...it's straight. The bustline on the genuine example is rounded. Plus the not genuine example has a Jay Leno chin, while the genuine is less pronounced.

 

Subtle, but noticeable.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It cost me more It cost me much less in the long run because of the sources I used because I never got stuck paying real money for a fake coin, but so it was worth it.

 

Fixed, a bit, if Bill allows.

[HiHoAudio]

I learned quite a bit from this thread, thanks guys!

[nemo656]

Just a follow up to this in case your interested. I took the coin to my local coin dealer and he called it a very good fake. He also mentioned a slew of fakes coming out of Israel in the late 1960's early 1970's and figures that this is most likely one of them because that is around the time my father acquired that coin. I asked him to check if it was real gold and it was so I ended up selling it to him for melt value and he promised me it would not ever get back into circulation.....

 

Have a great day

Jim

[Nutmeg Coin]

I've had a few gold coins declared "not genuine" by NGC, so good that we are reminded of how many fakes are out there and keep biting unsuspecting collectors. As usual Bill Jones is right on target on criteria for fakes. I was speaking with a gold market maker that said a fake $20 that I had should be "defaced" so a later buyer would not be fooled. That seemed kind of extreme to me but in retrospect sensible from the standpoint of gold coins, especially small, hard to detect fakes that keep biting collectors who buy them unsuspectingly. I bought a $2 1/2 Liberty gold coin from a show dealer who had bought it from a state auction operation. When I sold it back to him, he brought it to the attention of the auctioneer who wanted to wash his hands of responsibility, saying that he did not know who the consignor was therefore could not refund his money. Melt on these things is around $1775 X .965 /8 = $214. If they get sold for $300 that is quite a mark-up over melt value!

[nemo656]

The one good thing that came of this was that I learned a heck of a lot about spotting fake Indian gold. When I was at the coin dealer he showed me a book that deals with Counterfeit Gold complete with pictures of known fakes and what to look for. The dealer actually took the time to show me both real and fake coins side by side. He even admitted getting duped from time to time, so he is always very cautious when purchasing raw gold.

 

I love the fact that he is an old timer and was totally willing to take the time to pass on his knowledge to me. Was worth the trip in my opinion, and a HUGE thanks to the knowledgeable folks who posted here. It is very appreciated!

 

Have a great day

Jim