Grading is Subjective--But Also Done by Humans posted by Jackson

[CSJournals-migration]

Thought I had filled a slot with a key date except for one small detail

 

There isn't a collector among us, who I'm sure owns at least one coin that they feel is undergraded. I feel the reason for this is due to one primary aspect of grading--that is Eye Appeal. Unfortunately grading-even by the 2 big TPG's- is always going to be subjective.

 

All of us with any experience in the hobby understand the main criteria used in grading-contact marks, hairlines, luster, wear on circulated coins. However this will get you to a technical point for an iffy range--then everything gets thrown out practically as "eye appeal" is then gauged.

 

As a Walker collector who has looked at thousands of this series I'll use them as an example.... A coin may be very clean/clear of marks ( virtually pristine) average to well struck for the date and mint and with frosty luster and this coin is likely to get an MS66 or 67. They just don't give the "plain" white Walkers higher grades than 67 simply because there are thousands and thousands and they don't catch the eye as much-even in near perfect condition.

 

However I have seen repeatedly coins with weak strikes--flat head on Liberty, no discernable thumb and incomplete skirt lines ( and not just S mints)--I have seen such coins even with chatter in the fields get that same MS67 grade if the coin has some attractive rim toning or satiny luster. Now I'm not saying anything is wrong with either, it's just the way it is. If one is a collector you must understand this subjectiveness or you'll pull your hair out wondering why your obviously superior technical coin is lower grade than that scuffed, weakly struck toned coin. ( not to mention it may cost you a few bucks if you start fruitlessly sending in your coins for regrade.)

 

Well I've gotten way off of track from my original journal intent which was not about the subjective and eye appeal aspect of grading and how HUGE it is ( when a single point in grade can mean $500 or $5000 value-it's pretty huge).

 

I also wanted to mention the human aspect--which is sometimes things just get missed. It is an effort to failsafe this by having 3 seperate graders look at each coin--but I've studied enough about the human brain to know how easily it fools itself. So it is not surprising that just plain old errors occur.

 

I had recently purchased a 1914 Barber to fill a slot in my "Fine to XF Only set". I ended up being pretty disappointed when I had purchased a coin that was suitable in quality and in a middling grade that wasn't too expensive, only to find that there was one detail that ruined my deal.

 

The 3 graders at PCGS had missed it, the consignor to auction missed it ( giving the benefit of the doubt) and the auctioneer missed it-- but the 1914 I purchased when viewed under magnification was actually a 1914-S with the S either altered or abnormally worn to the point of being barely visible to the naked eye. It is one of those things that once someone points it out to you it is obvious however I can see how it was missed. Especially if the submitter had entered 1914 on his invoice and the 3 graders weren't looking very closely for it. ( you do know that the vast majority of coins get 3 to 5 seconds of perusal for grading by each grader, right?) I can see it now............

 

Grader #1: Barber Half 1914--hmmmmm, uncleaned, no enviro damage, dings or gouges.....obverse has all letters of LIBERTY legible and reverse has full shield/lines..VF20...NEXT...( passes it to grader #2-repeat...

 

Well, I'm starting to really ramble. I'm not going to mention the TPG or Auctioneer by name--after all, it to err is human..happy hunting

 

See more journals by Jackson

[Six Mile Rick]

Jackson, Are you sure? The mint mark looks off center for one and #2 it looks to be reverse, #3 the s is too small for the regular mint mark, perfect size for the s that is on the ribbon only it is reverse as if the die flaked off a layer on the s in epluribus and it landed reverse and got pressed in the die. That would make this coin a 1914 not a 1914-S.

HMMMM,

[jackson64]

yeah, I'm pretty sure--I'll show a more blown up pic later with some contrast too. Your point about it being off-center brings up something I had bugging me.

 

I don't the mintmark is really off-center, for some reason--and again I'll give the benefit of the doubt---the reverse of the coin when photoed for auction was slightly rotated AND taken at a slight angle instead of upright and straight-on--I think this also makes judging it more of a challenge.

 

 

Here's a close-up. Maybe it's my mind playing tricks but the 2 symmetrical black spots look to be the loop holes of an S and I can swear I almost see the curves for serifs..either way, it is too iffy, even if they are just coincidental contact marks in the place that the MM is supposed to be.

 

Would the rest of you collectors be satisfied with this as your representative for a philly slot or would you return it and wait to spend your $400 bucks on a coin that you were more sure of?

 

[Six Mile Rick]

O-K . I see the 1/2 S now or what seems to be. There is allot going on in that field. Kinda like a collection zone. I would imagine that you will find a much better looking one with the patients and eye you have.

 

Later---Rick

[TD Henson]

I agree with Rick, in the first picture I wasn't sure, but with the contrast differential in the second pic - I think the S jumps off this coin. I can clearly see the middle of the S and the serifs of the S are even visible.

 

I too agree how easily this could have been missed and that is one of the primary reasons I go over every coin I buy in a TPG holder to make sure I'm happy with the coin and assigned grade. NGC amazes me at their thouroughness, even in those short bursts of time. I generally, look at every coin multiple times, different lighting and sometimes different loupes and still miss some stuff they catch.

 

Todd

[jayman1970]

It looks like it could be an "S" in the second photo!I dont think I would keep it without being 100% sure its not an "S" mint coin!

[L1ncolnF4n]

It looks as much like a ding as an S to me. Send it in for mechanical error and claim a buyback if you are that upset.

[Six Mile Rick]

Whatever it is I believe it to be too small to match 1/2 of the upper s and too low and to the right a bit. Check the 1914-S pic in the explorer and then switch back to the other. You will find they don't work together. There is so much extra junk down there on that field --- including the other half of the s right at the tail feathers on the right.

Jackson I'm sure you will find one that is more pleasing.

 

Later---Rick

[mkman123]

hmmmmm maybe it could be an "S" or maybe our eyes are seeing things? Post this on the US coin forum and ask them

[coinsbygary]

Good catch Jackson, Most of the time I just take the label on the holder as gospel without questioning. There are exceptions of course, like when I got my 93-S Morgan and immediately looked for the diagnostics, but not as much to question the coin as much to learn about my coin. It seems though that the S on your coin was skillfully removed to fool even the best. But then again, I have a 1878-S Quarter Eagle that has a very clear S and a label that lists it as 1878. In this case I got it on E-Bay and knew exactly what I was buying. In MS-62 both the 1878 and 78-S are virtually the same in value.

All the best!

Gary

[RWB]

A couple of dings, and they are in the wrong place.

[jackson64]

LincolnF4n, You did read the part where they already refunded the money? The auctioneer pulled up the coin on the website after I gave the lot number and he immediately agreed ( although he thought it was a "weakly struck mintmark").

 

It took him 2 secs to agree that the coin was mislabeled and I had the refund and transaction canceled in less than 5 mins.

 

As far as mis-labeled coins go, I've had at least 4 or 5 of them from my submissions and at least 1 that I missed until in hand ( it was bought as a 42-S but the picture wasn't clear and there was some toning where the S should have been-which was a regualr 1942)

 

Either way, like I said--for $400 I'm not accepting a coin that may or may not be legit. The 1914, 1915 and even the 1913 Barbers are notorious for scammers doctoring off the MM. Thanks for the opinions e1...I looked at the dozen or so S mint Barbers in my collection also and have noticed a bit of inconsistency in size and placement of the MM so I'm not sure if this is a great way to judge either...

[newprepper]

I don't see how it could be abnormally worn, nothing around it is worn, but I don't see how the coloring is not different either, it must have been done a long time ago unless treated somehow, what were you using to see it that close? Because for me to finally see it was the larger photo which would be a pretty good magnification. Good catch. Just remember, I don't know what I'm talking about, still learning