Sales taxes on coins and collectibles 0

[Nutmeg Coin]

I was at a brick and mortar shop the other day. He would not take a check, it was well under $2000 no matter what documentation I might provide, dealer numbers, business license number, etc.. Then I said I could pay cash and he said he would have to charge me state sales tax if I paid with cash. Finally I said I had a standard one ounce gold coin and he said that would work fine, he wouldn't have to charge sales tax. Does anyone know if this is legal for him to operate like this?

Edited July 24, 2012 by Nutmeg Coin

[erickso1]

So he wouldn't take a check (not out of the ordinary), said he would have to charge sales tax if you paid via cash (and I'm assuming credit, if he took credit cards), and then traded gold for whatever you wanted?

 

Did he refuse to take your cash, or did you not want to pay with cash so you wouldn't have to pay sales tax?

[Nutmeg Coin]

I didn't say no on the sales tax, I'm not averse to that, but I have dealt with dealers in New Hampshire, Vermont, CT, MA, and Maine, and none of them have charged sales tax. We did not discuss that.

[mumu]

I see no problem with the check part. That part is not illegal

 

If the sale was over 1200 then he has to charge the tax, very legal.

 

Trade for gold, I suppose since no real money was involved then thats legal. But is 1500 "well under 2000$? I wouldnt describe 1500 as well under 2000, point being did you over pay by paying with 1500+ worth of gold?

[Nutmeg Coin]

He said that there is no minimum in Vermont on sales taxes, everything is hit. I think he's wrong. Plus I have a sales and use tax permit so should be exempt. I emailed the state tax department and hope to get clarity from them.

[coinman1794]

I was at a brick and mortar shop the other day. He would not take a check, it was well under $2000 no matter what documentation I might provide, dealer numbers, business license number, etc.. Then I said I could pay cash and he said he would have to charge me state sales tax if I paid with cash. Finally I said I had a standard one ounce gold coin and he said that would work fine, he wouldn't have to charge sales tax. Does anyone know if this is legal for him to operate like this?

 

 

 

If a dealer does not want to accept checks, that's up to him, and his rules should be respected, regardless of a buyer's credentials.

 

An even trade should incur no tax, as no money changed hands.

 

Cash deals have no paper trail, thus if he was going to charge you sales tax, he was probably following the law, rather than breaking it

 

...assuming he wasn't just pocketing the money.

 

 

If you are exempt from sales tax, it might be another story.

 

 

[dimefreak]

I prefer cash....... I hate paper trails

 

[BillJones]

He said that there is no minimum in Vermont on sales taxes, everything is hit. I think he's wrong. Plus I have a sales and use tax permit so should be exempt. I emailed the state tax department and hope to get clarity from them.

 

When I was dealer in New England, here were the rules as I knew them by state.

 

Massachusetts - No sales tax on coin purchases $1,000 and more.

 

New Hampshire - No sales tax period

 

Connecticut - No sales tax on U.S. coins period.

 

Vermont is a very radical state. It would not surprise me if they had sales tax on all purchases.

 

I only did one show in Maine when I lived in New England, and I can't remember the rules there.

 

Bullion was taxable, but since the U.S. gold and silver eagles have a face value, they are coins and are treated as such. Bars are another matter.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Maine does not have a tax on collectibles based on dealers I have transacted with in that state. Cash only = unaccountable to government agencies. This should bother everyone who believes in transparency and accountability to one another and to government. If people are running from government then they need to live in the cash economy, but doing so creates many psychological burdens and limits their ability to do significant transactions. Since this is an NGC site, I would think that they will respect privacy up to a point, but if they see a pattern of questionable conduct, doctoring, money laundering, evasion, etc., they may be required to report it to the relevant agency. As a member of NACA and other numismatic organizations, I am required to report unethical conduct to those who are tasked with that duty.

[erickso1]

Cash only = unaccountable to government agencies.

 

Nothing about cash only guarantees that the dealer is unaccountable to government agencies.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2012 by erickso1

[dimefreak]

Maine does not have a tax on collectibles based on dealers I have transacted with in that state. Cash only = unaccountable to government agencies. This should bother everyone who believes in transparency and accountability to one another and to government. If people are running from government then they need to live in the cash economy, but doing so creates many psychological burdens and limits their ability to do significant transactions. Since this is an NGC site, I would think that they will respect privacy up to a point, but if they see a pattern of questionable conduct, doctoring, money laundering, evasion, etc., they may be required to report it to the relevant agency. As a member of NACA and other numismatic organizations, I am required to report unethical conduct to those who are tasked with that duty.

 

That would be like me saying you are unethical because you referring to a blue sheet in one of your other threads. I prefer cash because I have no clue what I am suppose to and not suppose to claim on my tax forms. It doesnt mean I am evading and it certainly doesnt stop a person from doing significant transactions.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Bluesheet can be used to intimidate the unwary but it is indicative of sight unseen as is explained in every issue as well as last trades and certain types of markets. Have I ever bought using Bluesheet to intimidate a seller? Absolutely not! Have I been intimidated into selling at BS levels? Yes!

 

On the tax issue a tax lawyer from PA had this to say on the swap issue:

 

"The rules for sales tax vary by state, but the "swap" would definitely be considered a sale subject to sales tax in Pennsylvania regardless of whether the consideration was cash, check, credit, or a numismatic coin.

 

"61 Pa.Code § 33.1 includes the following definition:

 

"Purchase price—The total value of anything paid or delivered or promised to be paid or delivered, whether it be money or otherwise, in consideration of a sale at retail or purchase at retail not including a rental or license to use."

 

 

 

[erickso1]

Can you please summarize exactly what your issue with this B&M is and what state this transaction took place in?

 

 

[TheCoinGeezer]

Maine does not have a tax on collectibles based on dealers I have transacted with in that state. Cash only = unaccountable to government agencies. This should bother everyone who believes in transparency and accountability to one another and to government. If people are running from government then they need to live in the cash economy, but doing so creates many psychological burdens and limits their ability to do significant transactions. Since this is an NGC site, I would think that they will respect privacy up to a point, but if they see a pattern of questionable conduct, doctoring, money laundering, evasion, etc., they may be required to report it to the relevant agency. As a member of NACA and other numismatic organizations, I am required to report unethical conduct to those who are tasked with that duty.

You are "required" to report unethical conduct?

So far, you haven't outlined anything even remotely unethical by the dealer in question.

Live and let live, my friend, no need to be the ethics police.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Maine does not have a tax on collectibles based on dealers I have transacted with in that state. Cash only = unaccountable to government agencies. This should bother everyone who believes in transparency and accountability to one another and to government. If people are running from government then they need to live in the cash economy, but doing so creates many psychological burdens and limits their ability to do significant transactions. Since this is an NGC site, I would think that they will respect privacy up to a point, but if they see a pattern of questionable conduct, doctoring, money laundering, evasion, etc., they may be required to report it to the relevant agency. As a member of NACA and other numismatic organizations, I am required to report unethical conduct to those who are tasked with that duty.

 

There goes my Yard Sale hunting weekends.

I would not want to not be transparent and accountable.......

 

John Curlis

[Nutmeg Coin]

I spoke with the state of Vermont, tax department and they filled me in on the obligations on sales taxes for VT businesses. They said 6% on sales in the town where transaction occurred is the law; if dealers with sales and tax use permits want to avoid the %s all they have to do is file with the state, no charge or fee, big deal.

 

A real concern for many dealers in New England are the increasing regulations, especially the one week hold period on transactions which applies to all business activity of a certain type, this is mainly aimed at the hotel and pawn shop buyers, in certain towns/cities. Most coin dealers I spoke to said this would drive them out of business or make it very difficult to buy and sell precious metals. Have they contacted their state government? I have yet to hear of one who has been lobbying state government to present common sense legislation where they can examine all transactions and record them in ways that the government will be able to fight real fraud.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Nutmeg Coin

[erickso1]

I give up. Nevermind.

[dimefreak]

Bluesheet can be used to intimidate the unwary but it is indicative of sight unseen as is explained in every issue as well as last trades and certain types of markets. Have I ever bought using Bluesheet to intimidate a seller? Absolutely not! Have I been intimidated into selling at BS levels? Yes!

 

On the tax issue a tax lawyer from PA had this to say on the swap issue:

 

"The rules for sales tax vary by state, but the "swap" would definitely be considered a sale subject to sales tax in Pennsylvania regardless of whether the consideration was cash, check, credit, or a numismatic coin.

 

"61 Pa.Code § 33.1 includes the following definition:

 

"Purchase price—The total value of anything paid or delivered or promised to be paid or delivered, whether it be money or otherwise, in consideration of a sale at retail or purchase at retail not including a rental or license to use."

 

Sorry I thought you were a dealer buying from a dealer. My bad.

 

 

[mkman123]

I've met some b&m stores that only want cash.

[coinman_23885]

I give up. Nevermind.

 

I actually agree with you. While one could use it as an opportunity to not pay sales taxes, there are many legitimate reasons for wanting to deal with cash and it is too speculative to assume that a dealer has malevolent intent.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I spoke with the state of Vermont, tax department and they filled me in on the obligations on sales taxes for VT businesses. They said 6% on sales in the town where transaction occurred is the law; if dealers with sales and tax use permits want to avoid the %s all they have to do is file with the state, no charge or fee, big deal.

 

A real concern for many dealers in New England are the increasing regulations, especially the one week hold period on transactions which applies to all business activity of a certain type, this is mainly aimed at the hotel and pawn shop buyers, in certain towns/cities. Most coin dealers I spoke to said this would drive them out of business or make it very difficult to buy and sell precious metals. Have they contacted their state government? I have yet to hear of one who has been lobbying state government to present common sense legislation where they can examine all transactions and record them in ways that the government will be able to fight real fraud.

 

1st paragraph: How does this curtail what is being perceived as a fraud, and how does it deter cash transactions?

 

2nd paragraph: I will go out on the proverbial limb, a very rare undertaking for me, and predict that challenges to expansion laws beyond the stated businesses (but not excluding them) will tie up State and Federal Courts for a long time, and regardless of which position one supports, will not curtail anything, save for foreign and domestic activity directed at the U.S., and even then mimimally.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[Nutmeg Coin]

The government agencies know which types of transactions help make their jobs easier interdict real fraud and which are irrelevant. It is ironic when honest people are buying and selling collectibles with cash or cash equivalents and then being taxed on pre-1933 coins and currency as if they were not money. I am not an expert on how and why law enforcement operates, others here most likely are. Often when I do a cash transaction I note who I did business with on the online banking site. Whether the bank or government workers look through these records, I don't know. Any lawyer will tell you that the more in the way of records you have, the better it is for your financial and tax issues. Even with cash transactions there are reporting requirements, 8300 forms, etc., above certain levels.

 

On my second paragraph, the current state and local laws have perhaps been too hastily enacted and enforced in a scattershot manner. But holding periods on buying and selling by precious metals and coin dealers is not something that anyone who tries to make an honest living in this business wants to see done, but these laws have come about as a reaction to hundreds if not thousands of citizens demanding their governments take action.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Nutmeg Coin

[copper toning]

Nut meg do you buy or sell on ebay?

 

If so can you please pm me your ebay ID

 

Thanks, Jim

[johnny9434]

I give up. Nevermind.

 

I actually agree with you. While one could use it as an opportunity to not pay sales taxes, there are many legitimate reasons for wanting to deal with cash and it is too speculative to assume that a dealer has malevolent intent.

ill agree with that.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Nut meg do you buy or sell on ebay?

 

If so can you please pm me your ebay ID

 

Thanks, Jim

 

Why do you ask, Jim?

[Nutmeg Coin]

I give up. Nevermind.

 

I actually agree with you. While one could use it as an opportunity to not pay sales taxes, there are many legitimate reasons for wanting to deal with cash and it is too speculative to assume that a dealer has malevolent intent.

ill agree with that.

 

If you have a sales and use tax permit, you are usually exempt. It is important that numismatic organizations inform their members of what the law is so they don't run into trouble. ICTA does this, but I have never seen an article in a numismatic publication dealing specifically with sales and use tax laws and how you can get into compliance.

[copper toning]

Nut meg do you buy or sell on ebay?

 

If so can you please pm me your ebay ID

 

Thanks, Jim

 

Why do you ask, Jim?

 

Given your post you make me nervous. Should we ever cross paths on the bay I would like to know who I am working with.

[dimefreak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=RFZrzg62Zj0

[Conder101]

For those interested here is a list, by state, of which states do and do not have sales tax on coins and bullion.

 

Alabama

The State charges 4% on everything, there are also County & City taxes, which can add another 4-5%.

Alaska

No state sales tax, though local governments may still tax.

Arizona

No sales tax collected on Coins, Paper Money, or Precious Metals.

Arkansas

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

California

Exemption on Coins and Bullion when over $1500. Paper Money is taxable.

Colorado

Sales Tax on Coins, Paper Money, and Bullion varies by City. The State does not charge any sales tax.

Connecticut

No sales tax on Coins or Paper Money. Exemption on Bullion when over $1000.

Delaware

No sales tax collected on Coins, Paper Money, or Precious Metals.

District of Colombia

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Florida

No sales tax on U.S. Coins or Currency. Exemption on Bullion when over $500.

Georgia

No sales tax collected on Coins, Paper Money, or Precious Metals.

Hawaii

General Excise Tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Bullion.

Idaho

No sales tax on Coins or Bullion. Paper Money is a grey area.

Illinois

No sales tax collected on Coins, Paper Money, or Precious Metals.

Indiana

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Iowa

No sales tax collected on Coins, Paper Money, or Precious Metals.

Kansas

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Kentucky

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Louisiana

Exemption on Coins and Bullion when over $1000. Paper Money is taxable.

 

Maine

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Maryland

Numismatic items and Bullion are exempt when over $1000.

Massachusetts

Coins, Paper Money, and Bullion are exempt when over $1000.

Michigan

No sales tax collected on Coins, Paper Money, or Precious Metals.

Minnesota

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Mississippi

No sales tax collected on Coins, Paper Money, or Precious Metals.

Missouri

No sales tax on Coins or Bullion, but taxes Paper Money

Montana

No sales tax collected on Coins, Paper Money, or Precious Metals by the State. There is a 3% Provisional tax in some communities. See Comments.

Nebraska

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Nevada

Sales tax is collected on anything that sells for over 50% of its “Face Value.” Private Mint Bars and Rounds are exempt.

New Hampshire

No Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

New Jersey

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

New Mexico

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

New York

Coins and Paper Money are Taxable, Bullion is Exempt when over $1000.

North Carolina

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

North Dakota

No sales tax collected on Coins, Paper Money, or Precious Metals.

Ohio

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Oklahoma

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Oregon

No sales tax collected on Coins, Paper Money, or Precious Metals.

Pennsylvania

No sales tax on Coins or Bullion, but taxes Paper Money.

Rhode Island

No sales tax on Coins or Bullion, but taxes Paper Money.

South Carolina

No sales tax collected on Coins, Paper Money, or Precious Metals.

South Dakota

No sales tax collected on Coins, Paper Money, or Precious Metals.

Tennessee

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Texas

Coins and Precious Metals are exempt over $1000. Paper Money is taxable.

Utah

No sales tax collected on Coins, Paper Money, or Precious Metals.

Vermont

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Virginia

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Washington State

No sales tax on Coins or Precious Metals. Paper Money is taxable.

West Virginia

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Wisconsin

Sales tax is collected on Coins, Paper Money, and Precious Metals.

Wyoming

Taxes vary by city on Coins and Paper Money. Precious Metals are taxable.

 

This list was as of April 2011

Edited July 24, 2012 by Conder101

[JStull]

If you have a sales and use tax permit, you are usually exempt.

 

I've never heard of any exemptions if you have a sales and use tax permit.

 

A sales and use tax permit, according to NY, applies to retail sales of certain tangible personal property and services. The use tax applies if you buy tangible personal property and services outside the state and use it within New York State.

 

For a business to be able to collect sales tax, on taxable goods and services, NYS requires a Certificate of Authority, which I believe most states also require, in addition to a Sales and Use Tax Permit.

 

There are; however, certain goods and services that are tax exempt, and the list can be found here(again for NYS):

 

Tax Exempt NYS

 

Scroll to the bottom, it's the grey shaded area.