Does the 1921 P$ VAM 3 have obverse diagnostics?

[mumu]

I havent seem to have seen anywhere list anything other than the very obvious reverse diags. But i recently read a post where someone thought they spotted a vam 3 from an obverse only ebay listing. This "someone" ended up returning the coin and the relisting shows it is clearly not the vam 3 but still it made me wonder what could be seen on the obverse?

[messydesk]

I'll assume you're talking about the 1921 Peace dollar, and not the Morgan. I don't think there's anything notable on the obverse of this coin. There may be a unique pattern of die polishing lines, but I doubt it's anything you could pick up on an eBay photo for an auction for which the seller didn't bother with a reverse photo.

[mumu]

I'll assume you're talking about the 1921 Peace dollar, and not the Morgan. I don't think there's anything notable on the obverse of this coin. There may be a unique pattern of die polishing lines, but I doubt it's anything you could pick up on an eBay photo for an auction for which the seller didn't bother with a reverse photo.

 

Yes, sorry about that. I do mean the Peace 21 vam 3

[RWB]

Yep---- they wrote "VAM 3" on the obverse with a black marker.... Does that help?

 

(Actually, some museums once did that with coins and medals - they put the accession number in the field!)

[crypto79-migration]

You mean this thread? If you wanted help, just ask it's all there FUFU.

 

Maybe the coin was returned as it was heavily processed and not even worth AU money. The VAM market on Peace Dollars is very soft and the VAM -3 isn't a huge value add and really only adds some liquidity.

[mumu]

You mean this thread? If you wanted help, just ask it's all there FUFU.

 

Maybe the coin was returned as it was heavily processed and not even worth AU money. The VAM market on Peace Dollars is very soft and the VAM -3 isn't a huge value add and really only adds some liquidity.

 

Well I wasnt going to name names, but yes thats the thread. What exactly about the obverse made you so excited that you had found a VAM 3?

[mumu]

]The VAM market on Peace Dollars is very soft and the VAM -3 isn't a huge value add and really only adds some liquidity.

 

Thats a far cry from

 

"I should make a few hundred more of it is the VAM "

[crypto79-migration]

You mean this thread? If you wanted help, just ask it's all there FUFU.

 

Maybe the coin was returned as it was heavily processed and not even worth AU money. The VAM market on Peace Dollars is very soft and the VAM -3 isn't a huge value add and really only adds some liquidity.

 

Well I wasnt going to name names, but yes thats the thread. What exactly about the obverse made you so excited that you had found a VAM 3?

 

Legitimate questions deserves legitimate answers

 

It appears that the VAM-3 was done late in the run in an attempt to extend a dies life. While impossible to prove the VAM 3 are among the worst struck of all the 21's and have a luster that is different than most other coins which makes me think that they reduced the strike pressure after working the die which caused its horrible strike.

 

It requires one to understand the roughly half dozen different strike states of a 21 but if you see a really bad one it should be checked for the VAM, if it has unusual luster (non-brilliant) it is another clue. While not a diagnostic it can be used to eliminate 95% of 21s' as not worth looking at. 5-8 years ago these were common to find in unattributed holders and would bring as much as a 100% premium in PCGS labeled plastic. While they might bring a small bump on Ebay in the MS62-64 range from collectors it is not a healthy 2 way market as most dealers ignore Peace VAM's and will not pay extra even for the rock stars like the 34d Doubled Die

 

Look at completed auctions and look at the central detail of every VAM-3 you come across and you will see a pattern emerge. The should bring more comment was more about a PCGS graded UNC with or without a value add like the VAM. A MS 63 VAM is a 4-500$ dollar coin.

[mumu]

I dunno, ive seen a couple pretty well struck(for a 21) vam 3s. Here are 2 of them.

 

 

[RWB]

Neither of those are "well struck." The top one is especially poor.

 

Here's a nicely struck 1921 Peace dollar I'll trot out again for comparison.

 

[crypto79-migration]

 

It requires one to understand the roughly half dozen different strike states of a 21

 

While I too have see one or two that were outside to Mean for the issue, we are talking tend analysis here and a trend is rarely defined by the extremes. The two examples actually show my point quite well. the MS 60 is about a poor of a strike as you will find (referenced by central relief) and the TV, while nice for a VAM-3 is towards to bottom of the scale for the 21 as a whole and it exhibits the funky luster pretty well too.

 

Go back and read read the line I have quoted. This is a comprehension issue on your part not a diagnostic one.

[mumu]

If you think those are weak 21 strikes then you need to look at more coins.

[mumu]

Neither of those are "well struck." The top one is especially poor.

 

Here's a nicely struck 1921 Peace dollar I'll trot out again for comparison.

 

 

I am not saying they are well struck. They are about on par for the average 21. Here is what I would lable weak even for a 21.

 

 

 

[mumu]

 

It requires one to understand the roughly half dozen different strike states of a 21

 

While I too have see one or two that were outside to Mean for the issue, we are talking tend analysis here and a trend is rarely defined by the extremes. The two examples actually show my point quite well. the MS 60 is about a poor of a strike as you will find (referenced by central relief) and the TV, while nice for a VAM-3 is towards to bottom of the scale for the 21 as a whole and it exhibits the funky luster pretty well too.

 

Go back and read read the line I have quoted. This is a comprehension issue on your part not a diagnostic one.

 

The Vam 3 is listed as an R7. While I dont think thats accurate, I still dont see how simply seeing a weakly struck obverse on a 21 is enough to buy it in hopes that its a vam 3. I assumed there was more of a diagnostic to it than that; that someone with the experience of "having seen thousands of them" would look for before buying and returning them while hunting for them.

[RWB]

So...do aspire to collect "average," or do you wish to compare with some of the best? Crypto is quite right. Re-reading his comments would probably be beneficial.

 

If you look in A Guide Book for Peace Dollars, you’ll find an illustration of central detail for 1921 coins. That has helped many collectors understand the details.

 

 

[mumu]

So...do aspire to collect "average," or do you wish to compare with some of the best? Crypto is quite right. Re-reading his comments would probably be beneficial.

 

If you look in A Guide Book for Peace Dollars, you’ll find an illustration of central detail for 1921 coins. That has helped many collectors understand the details.

 

 

People keep telling me to re read because I am not understanding. I must be the crazy one because this is not about what I aspire to collect nor is it about well struck coins. The premise I am inquiring about, which is being presented by crypto here and ATS is that weakly struck 21s are most likely VAM 3s. I am arguing that the pool of weakly struck 21s is most likely a very high magnitude exponent larger than what an R7 VAM would amount to.

 

RWB what you may not know without seeing the ATS post is that he bought a 21 with obverse pics only, claiming that it is most likely a VAM 3. I dont see how that could be determined unless an obv diagnostic existed for the VAM and was asking what that diagnostic might be. The answer given was a weakly struck obverse. Yet it is well known that 21s are notorious for weak strikes. Are you telling me I am wrong about 21s being weakly struck in the center for the most part? Because that is the only opinion I am stateing in reality and it is based on what I have seen to be commonly accepted. So please point out exactly what it is I have misread?

[crypto79-migration]

I don't remember saying all weakly struck 21 were VAM 3. What I said was when they are really weakly struck that is when i t is worth it to check them. And I thought it was worth a cheap 200 wager on a bad picture to try thinking that as long as it was UNC who cared. It turned out to be processing that gave it it's muted look and the rest of the coin was down hill form there so that is why it got returned, I didn't even check about the VAM as it went right back to the seller and was never my main focus. Even mentioning the term R7 in the conversation with the VAM 3 shows how very little you know about the coin at issue. I have owned a over a dozen different ones (mostly UNC's) and not only were they poorly stuck they weren't stuck up all the way but that's starting to get into metal flow and I don't want to overwhelm you.

 

Most of the "weakly struck" examples you posted aren't as bad as the MS60 you posted earlier although the last one with the funny sticker is really bad, and for what it is worth I would flip that one over and look for the VAM if I was at a show.

 

Last time and as dumbed down as I can get it, not all weakly struck 21s' are VAM3s but all VAM3s are weakly struck and once you actually hold a few of them in your hands you will notice that the luster is distinctive too. Not a diagnostic, just a pattern.

[mumu]

Nice try Crypto but I clearly stated I did not believe the R7 designation given by VAMWORLD to be accurate. Continue to try and bring me down but at the end of the day im not the one buying VAM 3s dice rolls from OBVERSE ONLY pics and returning them.

[crypto79-migration]

I am arguing that the pool of weakly struck 21s is most likely a very high magnitude exponent larger than what an R7 VAM would amount to.

 

By first stating that you don't believe it to be true and then after the fact basing your/an argument on a fact you don't believe in shows that you are just arguing for arguments sake. I am sorry I dignified your original question, you are a waste of my time on multiple levels.

[mumu]

It is noteworthy to add to the conversation that im sure the seller is thrilled that you returned the coin as he realized 521$ for it. So in the end I guess that makes you right...you could have made a few hundred in flipping it LMFAO

[mumu]

I am arguing that the pool of weakly struck 21s is most likely a very high magnitude exponent larger than what an R7 VAM would amount to.

 

By stating that you don't believe it to be true and then basing your/an argument on a fact you don't believe in after the fact shows that you are just arguing for arguments sake. I am sorry I dignified your original question, you are a waste of my time.

 

The point of that, which I assumed would be easy to extract for someone as brilliant as yourself, was that despite not thinking its as rare as an R7, it is a rarity to some degree. One where simply noting a weak strike would not help diagnose it.

[crypto79-migration]

It is noteworthy to add to the conversation that im sure the seller is thrilled that you returned the coin as he realized 521$ for it. So in the end I guess that makes you right...you could have made a few hundred in flipping it LMFAO

 

I could care less what EBay sellers materialize on coins I don't want. I do feel for the collector who paid PCGS money for a coin that not many other people on earth will pay even close for. The seller was an outstanding seller and I wish him luck in the future but the coin wasn't right for me at the $199 level and nothing changes that.

 

If you are trying to make me feel bad because I left $300 bucks on the table by doing the right thing and not passing a problem coin on at full retail to a fellow collector( I can assure you a dealer didn't buy at that price point) than two things come to mind.

1- I suspect $300 means more to you than it does to me

2- I suspect integrity means more to me than it does to you

[mumu]

Yes, you have shown GREAT integrity over the years.

[RWB]

OK. I missed the ATS thing. This sounds like a 2-person debate thatI will enjoy from the sideline.