Does NGC have this guarantee that PCGS has?

[mkman123]

Hi all recently in a thread ATS, there was a pic of a puttied PCGS Indian.

 

I made a comment that PCGS needs to buy the coin back and destroy it.

 

Don Willis the President of PCGS commented on my comment:

 

"Believe it or not, the coin is probably very nice. We may downgrade it, or not. All the putty will come off with an acetone wash. Coin doctors applied putty to cover the slightest imperfections. Sometimes they got the higher grade. Sometimes they didn't. I have seen a lot of coins where we have removed the putty and I thought it looked great.

 

When applied as intended putty is invisible. It turns milky in a few months. The milkiness should be very obvious to any knowledgeable collector or dealer.

 

Today we have tools to help us detect doctored coins that we didn't have years ago. If you see or suspect a coin to be puttied please let me know. No PCGS dealer should sell an obviously puttied coin.

 

All this is a good exercise as to why you should be buying only PCGS coins. No matter how many years pass after we authenticate and grade a coin our unlimited guarantee still applies. Don't listen to all the nonsense out there - PCGS buys back any problem coin that we have holdered - no one else.

 

Where else can you buy a lifetime guarantee on any other product?"

 

That got me thinking......does NGC offer a unlimited guarantee and if not, I hope they do so!!!

 

 

[TomB]

No doubt there are areas on each companie's website that will give better or more accurate information that I can type here, but if I recall correctly the current biggest difference between the PCGS and NGC guarantees is that PCGS no longer guarantees the color designation on copper (if you are not the original submitter of the coin) whereas NGC guarantees the color designation for ten years. This may be incorrect, but it is what I remember.

[jom]

Willis is correct about the putty. I've had experience with that (no downgrade after it was taken off by PCGS in my case) so the guarantee was a good one! However, I don't believe the "no one else" non-sense he stated.

 

Tom is probably correct: NGC has a similar set up as PCGS.

 

jom

[Keigwin]

NGC's guarantee, with regard to puttying, is just as good as PCGS's.

 

As for the copper color guarantee, PCGS no longer guarantees color for coins bought or graded as of 2010.

 

I like NGC's more liberal guarantee though I have yet to have NGC come through (and PCGS has a dozen times). Personal experience. YMMV.

Lance.

[mkman123]

thanks for answering my question!

[$ilverHawk]

See the NGC guarantee and judge whether Don Willis statement is accurate or purely marketing.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/services/writtenguarantee.asp

 

Carl

[mkman123]

From reading it, seems like NGC has the same guarantee except there are some limitations/exceptions

 

[e1cnr]

I found this more revealing from hrh ->

 

So we'll check the cert number, find out who submitted the coin...and then I'll explain to the original submitter the wisdom of him buying this coin and cracking it out, if you know what I mean.

 

Look...coin doctoring is a fact of the marketplace. We continue to work on technological and legal solutions. We fight the battle every day. People put gunk on coins, they look OK for a while, then the gunk turns and the coins look like they were bombed by seagulls. We do have a grading guarantee, but putting putty or other chemicals on coins is not a good deal for the coin market and hurts everyone except the doctors who make a short term profit. And the sad part is that many wonderful coins are being ruined forever. What has been done to Matte proof gold is heartbreaking.

 

The community should also work on community solutions. This is a problem that effects everyone.

 

 

[mkman123]

e1cnr, what happened with matte proof gold???

[MarkFeld]

Hi all recently in a thread ATS, there was a pic of a puttied PCGS Indian.

 

I made a comment that PCGS needs to buy the coin back and destroy it.

 

Don Willis the President of PCGS commented on my comment:

 

"Believe it or not, the coin is probably very nice. We may downgrade it, or not. All the putty will come off with an acetone wash. Coin doctors applied putty to cover the slightest imperfections. Sometimes they got the higher grade. Sometimes they didn't. I have seen a lot of coins where we have removed the putty and I thought it looked great.

 

When applied as intended putty is invisible. It turns milky in a few months. The milkiness should be very obvious to any knowledgeable collector or dealer.

 

Today we have tools to help us detect doctored coins that we didn't have years ago. If you see or suspect a coin to be puttied please let me know. No PCGS dealer should sell an obviously puttied coin.

 

All this is a good exercise as to why you should be buying only PCGS coins. No matter how many years pass after we authenticate and grade a coin our unlimited guarantee still applies. Don't listen to all the nonsense out there - PCGS buys back any problem coin that we have holdered - no one else.

 

Where else can you buy a lifetime guarantee on any other product?"

 

That got me thinking......does NGC offer a unlimited guarantee and if not, I hope they do so!!!

 

 

I can understand some degree of cheerleading, but I think those comments about guarantees were way over the top.

 

Perhaps I am not remembering correctly, but my recollection is that when Mr. Willis was a dealer, he didn't sell only PCGS coins to his customers.

[$ilverHawk]

Mark,

 

I'm sure you are remembering correctly, and I'm sure that Mr. Willis comments are way over the top. That, unfortunately, is the reason that I take the position that Mr. Willis is not concerned with contributing to numismatics. His only concern is to market PCGS. That is very sad.

 

To be absolutely clear, I find little fault with PCGS grading. We all have our own interpretations on both PCGS and NGC grading. However, to insinuate that another TPG, specifically, NGC , does not fully back their grading is an out right lie.

 

Carl

[$ilverHawk]

Totally agree. Well said.

 

Carl

[coinman_23885]

From reading it, seems like NGC has the same guarantee except there are some limitations/exceptions

 

Yes, they all have a huge limitation: they get to decide if it is market acceptable (in terms of problems), and they get to decide the value which may or not match their price guide or necessarily certain wholesale prices, whether to dip and "conserve" your coin, there are exceptions (that while justifiable and understandable, can arguably be construed in negative ways), etc. Legally, I think both the NGC and PCGS guarantees are written broadly enough that the guarantee essentially constitutes whatever they say it does at the moment with respect to the coin submitted under their guarantee.

 

The other important difference, the copper guarantee has already been discussed.

[coinman_23885]

However, to insinuate that another TPG, specifically, NGC , does not fully back their grading is an out right lie.

 

...And it is arguably tortious in my opinion.

[James_OldeTowne]

Perhaps I am not remembering correctly, but my recollection is that when Mr. Willis was a dealer, he didn't sell only PCGS coins to his customers.

That is unquestionably true, as Don also bought and sold raw coins (sometimes).

[TheCoinGeezer]

Don Willis speaks with forked tongue.

One has to expect cheerleading for PCGS from him but this is a bit too much, IMO.

[Conder101]

One difference in the guarantees that hasn't been mentioned is that PCGS guarantees attributions and NGC does not. But on the other hand PCGS doesn't attribute very much so they don't stick their neck out. NGC will attribute a lot more varieties. If you only attribute the easy stuff you're pretty safe guaranteeing it.

 

And neither one mentions how they had to be pushed kicking and screaming into guaranteeing authenticity IN WRITING.

[leeg]

I posted an NGC proof coin that had a real bad spot on it. It had developed after holdering.

 

An NGC moderator contacted me via PM about returning the coin to them.

 

To me, this is what standing behind your guarantee is all about.

 

Has anyone had this same thing happen to them with a PCGS coin? I haven't and I've sent at least four coins back to them via grade guarantee service and one of the coins took over a year for them make a final determination on it.

 

Personally, all my grading fee's go to NGC.

 

(thumbs u

[mrstock]

Take everything Willis says with a huge grain of salt. He has stated that all Peace dollars that are rainbow toned are AT yet PCGS continues to slab them. So much for consistency from the top down. I have no problem with slabbing rainbow Peace dollars but Willis should figure out what his position on this issue really is.

[PerryHall]

Take everything Willis says with a huge grain of salt. He has stated that all Peace dollars that are rainbow toned are AT yet PCGS continues to slab them. So much for consistency from the top down. I have no problem with slabbing rainbow Peace dollars but Willis should figure out what his position on this issue really is.

 

I thought that David Hall said that.

[MarkFeld]

Take everything Willis says with a huge grain of salt. He has stated that all Peace dollars that are rainbow toned are AT yet PCGS continues to slab them. So much for consistency from the top down. I have no problem with slabbing rainbow Peace dollars but Willis should figure out what his position on this issue really is.

 

I thought that David Hall said that.

 

You are correct - David Hall is the one who commented about rainbow toned Peace Dollars.

[TheCoinGeezer]

I

Personally, all my grading fee's go to NGC.

Me too. I get submission privileges through my ANA membership.

I haven't sent in a lot of coins but those I did were processed quickly (even at economy rate!) and customer service goes the extra mile to answer inquiries.

[crypto79-migration]

In my experience both PCGS and NGC have some of the best Guarantees in all of business but to be honest I don't collect copper coins and am not sure about it as it pertains to that field.

 

Even though, I have noticed that the services tend to go the extra mile when a normal collector is involved and haven't ever heard a story about a customer being not made reasonably whole and happy. I have heard them take a harder line (read open negotiations) with market makers, whales, and dealers who may or may not have but should have known better than to get them selves into a hole.