Still chasing the elusive 1953-S FBL Franklin

[ScreamingEagle-migration]

I have been chasing the down the 1953-S FBL Franklin for over 3 years now with no luck. I have been through countless rolls and "n" number of Mint Sets and "n" number of raw Frankie's found here an there.

 

I have had several where the Bell Lines 99% there and thought the call could go either way by the Grading Gods and the Gods never shined my way. I have ended up with countless MS65 and MS66 1953-S's that I couldn't wait to get rid of.

 

I have the whole set of Franklins in FBL except the 1953-S. I have 2 PCGS MS67 FBL's, 25 PCGS MS66 FBL's, and 10 PCGS MS65 FBL's and several 1953-S MS66's. I am going to stay after until I upgrade the 10 PCGS MS5 FBL's to PCGS MS66 FBL's but if I still can't find a 1953-S MS63 to MS65 FBL I'll just have to give up on the chase and work on something else.

 

I will pay a reward of 10% of price paid for the coin to anybody that can help me find one. I want PCGS MS63 FBL to MS65 FBL but I will also settle for NGC that has the Bell Lines to Cross Over.

 

If you have any info on a 1953-S FBL email at screaming_eagle@comcast.net.

 

Thanks,

101Vet

[gmarguli]

I will pay a reward of 10% of price paid for the coin to anybody that can help me find one. I want PCGS MS63 FBL to MS65 FBL but I will also settle for NGC that has the Bell Lines to Cross Over.

 

That's like saying I want a Chevy, but I will also settle for a Mercedes. NGC actually requires FULL BELL LINES to get the FBL designation. PCGS only requires the much easier bottom set to be there.

 

Without looking it up, I'd guess there are 10X as many "FBL" PCGS coins than NGC.

 

As for finding a PCGS graded one, it shouldn't be hard. They come up for sale frequently. Try a major auction house/dealer like Heritage. They'll find you one pretty quick.

[jom]

That's like saying I want a Chevy, but I will also settle for a Mercedes. NGC actually requires FULL BELL LINES to get the FBL designation. PCGS only requires the much easier bottom set to be there.

 

I've heard that is true but what about the overall grade? What if NGC is tough on the designation but not on the overall grade?

 

jom

[gmarguli]

I've heard that is true but what about the overall grade? What if NGC is tough on the designation but not on the overall grade?

 

I'm not a big Franklin fan, but the last time I submitted Franklins I sent a few to NGC and a few to PCGS. I sent the technically nicer coins which had no chance at getting a FBL at either service to NGC. I sent the technically junkier ones, but with the complete lower bell lines to PCGS. I figured I'd maximize my profit here by getting the FBL at PCGS and hopefully higher grades at NGC on the non-FBL.

 

Imagine my surprise when NGC hammered my coins with the awful MS65 grade. Fast forward a few eons and my coins get returned by PCGS graded MS66FBL.

 

I was actually holding out hope for an MS67 from NGC and figured there were all solid MS66 at the least. I was very disappointed with MS65s. The PCGS coins were MS65FBL at best.

 

I don't submit enough Franklins (or any more coins to PCG$) to know if this is the norm, but I was pretty surprised. Sight unseen, if I were a FBL collector, I'd never buy a PCGS coin since I don't believe their FBL designation is worth ANY premium. I don't consider a Franklin with 4 of 7 bell lines to have complete bell lines and those that collect PCGS-standard FBL Franklins should really think about what they are paying extra money for.

[coinman1794]

As a regular submitter of Franklins and a Franklin spcecialist, I can comment on this first hand.

 

On MS67's both services are very tough. A coin must have glowing luster, and usually, great color. A few small ticks will be tolerated by either service.

 

PCGS is very inconsistent with briliant Franklins; any one of these could grade MS64-MS66. They are tough when it comes to giving a 65 to briliant coins, though. Many high-end coins go 64. 1954-S is notorious for this! Many 1954-S PCGS coins are undergraded, in my opinion. However, PCGS is loose in assigning the 66 grade. Also, they are forgiving on mint set pieces and reward eye appeal. MS66 is easy to get at PCGS on mint set Franklins, and on an occasional briliant piece.

 

It goes without saying that FBL is easier at PCGS! Their standards are actually published on the website if anyone is in doubt! They are way too loose on FBL's. Only the bottom three rows are necessary. They even forgive major abrasions that break the lines! Also, remember the 1954-S? In my opinion, many PCGS 1954-S FBL Franklins are undergraded, but almost NONE of them would ever qualify for FBL at NGC.

 

NGC tends to be looser on assigning MS65 to brilliant Franklins that have great luster; they are often willing to forgive a few flaws because of eye appeal. (When comparing the two services, it's hard to say whether PCGS is too tight, or NGC is too loose on 65's. Personally, I do like my 65's to be free of obvious hits, but not all NGC-65's are low end, and not all PCGS-65's are high-end, of course. It's just the coins on that breaking point between 64-65 that I am talking about here. And, many PCGS -64's are too clean to be 64's (hint: 1954-S). However, NGC is very tough, accross the bord, on assigning an MS66. I have not seen very many MS66's that I felt were overgraded in there holders. I have seen and head of many at PCGS. 1954-S, 1963-P+D, 1962-D, and 1961-P-D, are all dates that NGC absolutely suck's at grading. I find MS65's that are ugly MS63's at best. Often, they are willing to take a look at these for free and conserve them if they aggree on the overgrade, and they aye appeal can be greatly improved. Sometimes, they will buy back. 1948-D is notoriously overgraded in NGC-66, in my opinion! (It is important to note that, while I am laying out the basic overall trends, there are individual issues differ form the norm, such as the 1948-D I just mentioned. The best way to do this study would be to go through issue by issue, but I don't want to righ a book! ). NGC is very, very tough on Mint Set toned Franklins from 1956-58 (Were your MS67 hopeful's in this catagory?), and seemingly more forgiving on other toned dates, like 53-D and 52-P+D. They are definitely looser on toned 1955's. Although, I think they are more accurate on 1955's than PCGS. PCGS gives out 64's on outstanding 1955's!

 

NGC is so strict on assigning FBL that sometimes, they don't give it to coins that actually do make their FBL standard. It is often a good idea to re-submit if you are convinced it should be FBL but they didn't give it. They usually get it right on a second look. They require all 6 rows to be completely visible all the way across. Also, they will not tolerate any noticable breaks. If you get an NGC coin to go FBL that has any visible ticks on the lines, you should play the lotery becuase you lucked out! That is very rare!

 

In the end, I prefer to acquire a nice NGC piece, because, if you find one that's dead center for the grade, it can be had for much less than the same coin in PCGS plastic! And, the bell lines will be solid! This really isn't hard to find either, because, again, it's only on the borderline MS64-65's that there is a real difference. And remember, on MS65-66 coins, the PCGS MS66 breaking point is looser. On coins other than these borderline ones, the vast majority are equal in grade (not in Bell Lines, of course). And so, that answers the original question about how an NGC Franklin with FBL compares in grade to a PCGS FBL. The majority are equal.

 

This is another long post, but it should be helpful. It would need to cover every Franklin issue individually to be fully useful, but hopefully, it is a starting point!

 

P.S. NGC has only ever grade 3 1953-S Franklins as FBL, all MS65's. PCGS has graded about 34, including about 19 MS65's.

[Leothelion]

I have had several where the Bell Lines 99% there and thought the call could go either way by the Grading Gods and the Gods never shined my way. I have ended up with countless MS65 and MS66 1953-S's that I couldn't wait to get rid of.

 

Hey! I'm a buyer! But the coin must have an EDS strike and 99% FBLs.

 

Thanks Leo

[gmarguli]

NGC is very, very tough on Mint Set toned Franklins from 1956-58 (Were your MS67 hopeful's in this catagory?)

 

Yep. I don't remember which date, but it was a mint set coin and it was either a 1957 or 1958 (don't remember which mint). The coin was so clearly undergraded that I ended up selling it with ease for between MS66 and MS67 money.

[ScreamingEagle-migration]

This is to Greg.

 

If it is so easy to find a PCGS 1953-S FBL find one and sell it too me or find one and collect the 10%.

 

I suggest you are just breaking a lot of wind and not offering much else to the post.

 

John - 101Vet

[coinman1794]

NGC is very, very tough on Mint Set toned Franklins from 1956-58 (Were your MS67 hopeful's in this catagory?)

 

Yep. I don't remember which date, but it was a mint set coin and it was either a 1957 or 1958 (don't remember which mint). The coin was so clearly undergraded that I ended up selling it with ease for between MS66 and MS67 money.

 

I have a 1957 right now that is an obvious 66+++. In fact the obverse is literally 67+, but a single hairline is seen on the reverse. (The coin is MS67+/MS66+). The coin is a mint set piece, and, as usual, NGC graded it MS65! I had them re-examine it, but it stayed MS65! It looks pathetic in the 65 holder because it is so ultra-smooth, but they won't upgrade it! There isn't even any dark toning! And, it's a fairly early die state with lots of fresh eye appeal to the luster. I can't figure it out! Franklin's are one of my specialties and this baby is undergraded! For the record, it started out as a PCGS-66!

[RobertB]

Here you go:

 

http://www.ricoins.com/librarypages/1953fr66FBL.htm

 

Let me know when you're ready to send my $ 7,000 check.

 

Rob

[ScreamingEagle-migration]

Rob:

 

The only problem with that is the coin is not for sale, he has had that ariticle in his library for the last couple of years. That same coins that sold for $69K I think it was a year later sold for 33K so maybe that first guy overpaid if bit at 69K. I am not exactly sure of the 33K figure I remember in was in the 30K area though that article on the second sale I believe is in the PCGS Library.

 

Also, I should have mentioned that Mr. Franklin at RICoins is excluded from my list of Dealers.

[coinman1794]

Rob:

 

The only problem with that is the coin is not for sale, he has had that ariticle in his library for the last couple of years. That same coins that sold for $69K I think it was a year later sold for 33K so maybe that first guy overpaid if bit at 69K. I am not exactly sure of the 33K figure I remember in was in the 30K area though that article on the second sale I believe is in the PCGS Library.

 

Also, I should have mentioned that Mr. Franklin at RICoins is excluded from my list of Dealers.

 

Can you tell us why he is excluded? Have you had problems with R&I?

[ScreamingEagle-migration]

I don't want to post my feeling about Mr Franklin in this forum, other then I don't care to deal with him.

[RobertB]

Oh well, I tried. I'm still looking for you.

[Techno_mike-migration]

Sight unseen, if I were a FBL collector, I'd never buy a PCGS coin since I don't believe their FBL designation is worth ANY premium. I don't consider a Franklin with 4 of 7 bell lines to have complete bell lines and those that collect PCGS-standard FBL Franklins should really think about what they are paying extra money for.

 

This issues forces me to ask the obvious question...With differing standards in place for the FBL designation between PCGS and NGC, why does the NGC registry give equal credit to PCGS coins? It would be interesting to remove the weaker PCGS FBL coins (give them credit for MS grade only) and see how all the rankings get revised. Just a thought.

[EZ_E]

John,

 

Interesting thread that you've started. I remember over a year ago that LucyBop had one for sell for c. $12-15K. I can't remember the holder but think that it was a 65. You should be able to tell by the price range. I think that she has gotten out of her Franklins but maybe another boardster may know. I haven't seen her post for awhile now, too.

 

p.s. Coinman1794, very enlightening post. Thanks for your time.

 

p.p.s. Gregory, you instigator. Just playing because I enjoyed your input on this thread, too.

[LucyBop]

Another ms64fbl PCGs Frankie was just graded, it was found raw sitting in a Dansco folder for many years...

 

53s FBL Frankies are tough, but you never know where one may show up...