Why I send coins to CAC/buy CAC'd coins.

[AnkurJ]

So over the last few weeks, I have taken some heat from other board members as a drinker of CAC-aid. I have no problem taking the heat, but figured I would post this thread to tell you all of my logic. I dont expect all of you to understand this, and that is fine. We can all collect the way we want, and this is how I choose to. Please respect that, as I have no problem with how you collect.

 

So it all began in late October of 2010. I started getting a little bit sick with some very strange symptoms. My speech was slurred, and both hands were shaking to the point that I could not button my own shirt. After a week of this, I ended up going on disability from work. I was unsure where life was going, and what was wrong with me. Having a daughter born 3 months previously, I was scared.

 

I figured the worst, and decided I need to make my collection as liquid as possible if something was to happen. Seeing how auction companies like Heritage were doing so well with CAC approved coins, I decided I should start submitting my collection too. I asked a friend who had visited their offices, and was told simply to call ahead of time to make an appointment. I took 35 of my coins, and hung around for about an hour. 31 of them passed. The best thing about it though was meeting John Albanese for the first time, and him explaining to me why some of the ones did not pass. It was very educational and well worth the submission fee.

 

Well my diagnosis turned out to be something not so great, but something treatable and not life threatening. After meeting John and the staff at CAC for the first time, I was truly humbled. I expected them to be high and mighty (kind of like a certain grading company's customer service), but it was the exact opposite. Everyone, especially John, were so helpful in answering my questions and helping me learn.

 

So at this point in time, the majority of my collection is CAC'd. One reason is for liquidity, as we have all seen that CAC'd coins do sell for more. I dont need to prove this, just look at the resules of any major auction. This liquidity will protect my family when the time comes to sell if God forbid something is to happen to me. If nothing else, I know that John will make a resonable offer.

 

The other reason is the education I get with every submission. If someone auctioned off a lunch with John, I would urge everyone to jump at the opportunity! With each submission, I learn more and more, and have figured out how to spot problems much easier. Whether is be Morgans, early bust material or gold, I can spot issues better than I was able to. While I am not a master at grading every series, I do have a rough idea.

 

So that is pretty much it. If you have any questions feel free to post or PM me. I do not discriminate between one TPG or another and I have many gorgeous coins in NGC holders. But I am more critical of coins in their holders that aren't CAC'd, specifically bust material.

 

Thanks for reading, and fire away!

Ankur

[MarkFeld]

Many collectors and dealers don't realize what they don't know about rare coins and grading, unless or until they sit down and review coins with a person with the knowledge/expertise of a John Albanese.

 

Of course, there are a number of extremely knowledgeable collectors and dealers, but many of them do not share their knowledge nearly as freely.

 

I'm pretty good with coins, but can learn from John. And if I can, my guess is that quite a few other people can, too, even if they think they know everything they need to.

[mkman123]

I enjoy this forum and ATS as I learn from everyone

[MJ]

It is been said before but I firmly believe that many that resist CAC the most are the ones that could use the education the greatest. JA while not infallible he is one of the top five coin minds in the business. Perhaps the best. I still buy coins that aren't stickered as many many coins have never made it to John. Would I buy a non stickered coin that I know didn't pass? Sure but I would have to love love it. MJ

[Bruceswar]

I do not think most people on this board or anywhere else are anti CAC. Sure people may not like it, but they are not leading a brigade to take them out. With that said, nice coins can be had in CAC or non CAC holders. I think what most people are harping on is the fact some people only like CAC coins or only like PCGS holders. Not naming names, but that is what most people are harping on.

[mkman123]

brucewar hit it dead on. I don't mind cac or pcgs coins. I have a few coins that have green stickers and have pcgs coins as well. Whats annoying is seeing those ONLY touting PCGS coins or CAC coins and bashing NGC coins or have something negative to say about NGC coins.

[wheat'swheats]

I don't care who slabbed the coin. I wish CAC stickered ANACS. I have personally felt that CAC made Pcgs and NGC equal. If the coin with in the slab stickered who cares who's name is on the slab other than "my slab"

Wheat

[BillJones]

I do not think most people on this board or anywhere else are anti CAC. Sure people may not like it, but they are not leading a brigade to take them out. With that said, nice coins can be had in CAC or non CAC holders. I think what most people are harping on is the fact some people only like CAC coins or only like PCGS holders. Not naming names, but that is what most people are harping on.

 

This is my view entirely. My problem with CAC is the same as it is with the grading services. Just because the grading service says that a coin qualifies for Grade X, does not mean that the market will trade it in Grade X, if a large number of dealers think that it missed the mark. The same thing applies to CAC.

 

CAC has an advantage over PCGS and NGC in that they are only passing an opinion on the accuracy of the grade shown on the holder. They are largely avoiding the sometimes more difficult job of authentication and recognition of repair work and modifications. In many ways CAC’s job is easier than the responsibility that full service grading companies assume.

 

That’s why I really get piqued at them when they blow it. If you are going to assume what seems to be a developing veto power of the market value of a significant number of coins, you had best do that job very well. There are some people who are beginning to think that CAC is something less perfect.

 

[coinsbygary]

I don't go out of my way to buy CAC verified coins, however when one comes across my path I give it extra consideration because of superior eye appeal. That said, CAC does influence me as a collector. I often go through my collection thinking which of my coins would pass CAC review, especially my Morgans. In the process of examining my coins in this manner I am becoming much more skilled in grading MS Morgans.

 

I currently own three CAC verified coins across the grading spectrum, all of them Morgans. I recently purchased an 1893-CC Morgan in VF-25 with even wear and toning that became my favorite circulated Morgan. I have an MS-66 CAC 1882-S that is within spitting distance of 67. In fact there are many 67's that don't look as good as my 66. Furthermore, when I consider the price I would pay for a 67 common date Morgan as opposed to a 66, I found in this 66 that I could have my cake and eat it too. I am also proud to have this coin as my computer wallpaper at home and at work. The other coin I own is an MS-64 1885-O toner. Like it or not, CAC does provide a valuable service to the collecting community in that it challenges all of us to own the best looking coins for their grade.

Gary

 

[brg5658]

I do not think most people on this board or anywhere else are anti CAC. Sure people may not like it, but they are not leading a brigade to take them out. With that said, nice coins can be had in CAC or non CAC holders. I think what most people are harping on is the fact some people only like CAC coins or only like PCGS holders. Not naming names, but that is what most people are harping on.

 

This is my view entirely. My problem with CAC is the same as it is with the grading services. Just because the grading service says that a coin qualifies for Grade X, does not mean that the market will trade it in Grade X, if a large number of dealers think that it missed the mark. The same thing applies to CAC.

 

CAC has an advantage over PCGS and NGC in that they are only passing an opinion on the accuracy of the grade shown on the holder. They are largely avoiding the sometimes more difficult job of authentication and recognition of repair work and modifications. In many ways CAC’s job is easier than the responsibility that full service grading companies assume.

 

That’s why I really get piqued at them when they blow it. If you are going to assume what seems to be a developing veto power of the market value of a significant number of coins, you had best do that job very well. There are some people who are beginning to think that CAC is something less perfect.

 

+2

 

Wishing you good health Ankur.

-Brandon

[DirtyGoldMan]

I would skip all the puffery and would sum up my reasoning in three words:

 

Inexpensive and educational

[bsshog40]

I'm not knocking CAC or condemning them or anything. To each thier own. My personal opinion on this matter is what do we pay a TPG for??? I feel that if I take my hard earned money to send some coins to a top TPG, then I have to trust that TPG is doing thier job correctly to grade my coins correctly. I don't see any reason to take those coins and then send them to another company to have them look at the coin and say " Yea, grade looks right" and then put a little sticker on it. It actually baffles me a little how CAC came into the picture saying they have the ability to verify the grade that is on a top TPG's slab, while it's in the slab, put a little sticker on it, and make people believe that they can convince people that the TPG they chose either did thier job correctly or did not. Then I wonder, if I sent these coins to CAC, and some came back with no sticker, would the TPG take this coin back and change the grade because of CAC's refusal to agree with the grade??? Anyway, like I said, to each thier own. This is just my opinion!!

[DirtyGoldMan]

It actually baffles me a little how CAC came into the picture

 

The reason was that the principals and original investors, including some very prominent dealers and collectors, felt that the low-end-for-the-grade coins on the market were holding prices down on the like high-end-for-the-grade coins.

 

That is, having sale after sale of dipped and scrubbed XF-40 Dahlonega half eagles, in my world, was making it hard for dealers to get more money for a lovely original example.

 

The CAC came to being to help to break the link between the two and allow the high-end-for-the-grade coin to have greater demand and price separation. If you look at it from that perspective, and avoid all of the other chatter and opinion, it has been very successful.

 

What gets lost in nearly every discussion regarding the CAC, which differentiates it from the legacy grading companies, is that the CAC is an active market maker in CAC-stickered coins. This is actually intended to be the core business, not the stickering process, which should draw down over time.

[bsshog40]

So then what CAC actually does, Scenario here: take 2 MS60 coins and sticker the one that looks better at MS60 than the other one?? Is there a line that they draw between the 2 coins?? In other words, are they using a scale of say MS60, 60.1, 60.2, etc to get to MS61?? So an MS60 coin would possibly get a sticker if it was say MS60.8 ?? They say they use strict standards but do not state what those standards are.

[bluel-migration]

My personal opinion on this matter is what do we pay a TPG for???

I don't see any reason to take those coins and then send them to another company to have them look at the coin and say " Yea, grade looks right" and then put a little sticker on it.

It actually baffles me a little how CAC came into the picture saying they have the ability to verify the grade that is on a top TPG's slab, while it's in the slab, put a little sticker on it, and make people believe that they can convince people that the TPG they chose either did thier job correctly or did not.

Then I wonder, if I sent these coins to CAC, and some came back with no sticker, would the TPG take this coin back and change the grade because of CAC's refusal to agree with the grade??? Anyway, like I said, to each thier own. This is just my opinion!!

There's a fundamental piece you're missing. CAC only stickers coins they consider A & B for the grade, not C for the grade. They might not sticker a coin that is still accurate for the grade, but just at the lower end.

 

The problem lies in the fact that the grading scale used by TPGs hasn't kept up with the increasingly detailed grading demands of the current coin market. An MS-65 coin might just barely be an MS-65, or it might just barely be missing the MS-66 mark. For some coins that have a large jump between grades, that difference between "just barely MS-65" and "not quite MS-66" is important. The TPG grades themselves don't capture that - another reason why they introduced things like Pluses and Stars.

[bluel-migration]

So then what CAC actually does, Scenario here: take 2 MS60 coins and sticker the one that looks better at MS60 than the other one?? Is there a line that they draw between the 2 coins?? In other words, are they using a scale of say MS60, 60.1, 60.2, etc to get to MS61?? So an MS60 coin would possibly get a sticker if it was say MS60.8 ?? They say they use strict standards but do not state what those standards are.

If they both were 'A' or 'B' for the grade, they'd both get stickers. Kind of like MS60.0-MS60.9, yeah, and an MS60.8 would definitely get a sticker.

 

The "strict standards" are those of John Albanese, a founder of PCGS, the founder and ex-president of NGC.

[bsshog40]

Thank guys!!

[DirtyGoldMan]

So then what CAC actually does, Scenario here: take 2 MS60 coins and sticker the one that looks better at MS60 than the other one?? Is there a line that they draw between the 2 coins?? In other words, are they using a scale of say MS60, 60.1, 60.2, etc to get to MS61?? So an MS60 coin would possibly get a sticker if it was say MS60.8 ?? They say they use strict standards but do not state what those standards are.

Yes, they decimal grade and divide the coins into A, B, and C categories. They are interested in making a market in the A and B coins, but not the C coins.

 

How could they possibly further explain their standards? Can you articulate your standards? Why is it important that they articulate their standards any more than saying "we like this one and not that one." They are making a market in the former and not the latter. No one is putting a gun to your head and making you agree or participate in their market.

[James_OldeTowne]

I assume your OP is intended to solicit reactions. Mine is: get out of expensive coins, immediately, if you really feel your condition may worsen unexpectedly. Whether or not CAC coins or whatever else is "more liquid" or not is NOT all that important in the big scheme! Do you seriously want your family to have to muck around with marketing your coins, dealing with auction companies, or dealers, and managing payments?? No way!!!!

 

My comments are based on the value of the coins you've presented in the past. You are shifting the responsibility from yourself to your family, and are hoping/expecting CAC stickers to facilitate some sort of comfort level. Have you asked them about that??

 

Let me ask you this... let's say you die from a direct meteor hit tomorrow. You may choose (A) or (B) for your family from the following options:

 

(A) $300,000 in CAC coins, attainable in a few months after the family has had to haggle and hassle with selling and auctioning the coins

 

(B) $270,000 in CA$H, and $30,000 in coins

[AnkurJ]

The issue other than overgraded and problem coins finding their way into holders. The grading services are sometimes way too lenient on certain coins and pass them through. CAC weeds them out in a way. Look at early dollars as an example.

[Kurtdog]

So over the last few weeks, I have taken some heat from other board members as a drinker of CAC-aid. I have no problem taking the heat, but figured I would post this thread to tell you all of my logic. I dont expect all of you to understand this, and that is fine. We can all collect the way we want, and this is how I choose to. Please respect that, as I have no problem with how you collect.

 

So it all began in late October of 2010. I started getting a little bit sick with some very strange symptoms. My speech was slurred, and both hands were shaking to the point that I could not button my own shirt. After a week of this, I ended up going on disability from work. I was unsure where life was going, and what was wrong with me. Having a daughter born 3 months previously, I was scared.

 

I figured the worst, and decided I need to make my collection as liquid as possible if something was to happen. Seeing how auction companies like Heritage were doing so well with CAC approved coins, I decided I should start submitting my collection too. I asked a friend who had visited their offices, and was told simply to call ahead of time to make an appointment. I took 35 of my coins, and hung around for about an hour. 31 of them passed. The best thing about it though was meeting John Albanese for the first time, and him explaining to me why some of the ones did not pass. It was very educational and well worth the submission fee.

 

Well my diagnosis turned out to be something not so great, but something treatable and not life threatening. After meeting John and the staff at CAC for the first time, I was truly humbled. I expected them to be high and mighty (kind of like a certain grading company's customer service), but it was the exact opposite. Everyone, especially John, were so helpful in answering my questions and helping me learn.

 

So at this point in time, the majority of my collection is CAC'd. One reason is for liquidity, as we have all seen that CAC'd coins do sell for more. I dont need to prove this, just look at the resules of any major auction. This liquidity will protect my family when the time comes to sell if God forbid something is to happen to me. If nothing else, I know that John will make a resonable offer.

 

The other reason is the education I get with every submission. If someone auctioned off a lunch with John, I would urge everyone to jump at the opportunity! With each submission, I learn more and more, and have figured out how to spot problems much easier. Whether is be Morgans, early bust material or gold, I can spot issues better than I was able to. While I am not a master at grading every series, I do have a rough idea.

 

So that is pretty much it. If you have any questions feel free to post or PM me. I do not discriminate between one TPG or another and I have many gorgeous coins in NGC holders. But I am more critical of coins in their holders that aren't CAC'd, specifically bust material.

 

Thanks for reading, and fire away!

Ankur

CAC is but a 4th-party endorsement on a 3rd-party grade. That's all it is. And there's a market for it because they're not quacks and they stand behind what they sticker.

[bsshog40]

So then what CAC actually does, Scenario here: take 2 MS60 coins and sticker the one that looks better at MS60 than the other one?? Is there a line that they draw between the 2 coins?? In other words, are they using a scale of say MS60, 60.1, 60.2, etc to get to MS61?? So an MS60 coin would possibly get a sticker if it was say MS60.8 ?? They say they use strict standards but do not state what those standards are.

Yes, they decimal grade and divide the coins into A, B, and C categories. They are interested in making a market in the A and B coins, but not the C coins.

 

How could they possibly further explain their standards? Can you articulate your standards? Why is it important that they articulate their standards any more than saying "we like this one and not that one." They are making a market in the former and not the latter. No one is putting a gun to your head and making you agree or participate in their market.

First off, I don't participate in thier market. Second off, I was just wondering how thier standards were any different from say NGC or PCGS's standards for grading. It's merely a question, Not an Attack!!!

[AnkurJ]

James, in response to your question, my family has been instructed what to do. Frankly if something happens to me they will not need to sell my collection, but I figure they wouldn't want it lying around.

 

But I have a dealer I know very well who would buy most of my collection. Otherwise they were told to send it to heritage.

[DirtyGoldMan]

I assume your OP is intended to solicit reactions. Mine is: get out of expensive coins, immediately, if you really feel your condition may worsen unexpectedly. Whether or not CAC coins or whatever else is "more liquid" or not is NOT all that important in the big scheme! Do you seriously want your family to have to muck around with marketing your coins, dealing with auction companies, or dealers, and managing payments?? No way!!!!

 

My comments are based on the value of the coins you've presented in the past. You are shifting the responsibility from yourself to your family, and are hoping/expecting CAC stickers to facilitate some sort of comfort level. Have you asked them about that??

 

Let me ask you this... let's say you die from a direct meteor hit tomorrow. You may choose (A) or (B) for your family from the following options:

 

(A) $300,000 in CAC coins, attainable in a few months after the family has had to haggle and hassle with selling and auctioning the coins

 

(B) $270,000 in CA$H, and $30,000 in coins

James, you may change choice A to $500,000 in CAC coins vs. $270,000 in CA$H plus $30k in coins, and I still choose B. In case of an emergency or financial duress, collectible coins, especially to be distributed by the family, are not the place to be.

[RWB]

I tried emailing my coins, but all they did was bounce -- and that put tiny dings on the coins.... The smiley stickers are more fun, and so are the ones that say "Super Deal" and "Great Buy" and "Won't Last Long." Also, permanent color markers work great to punch-up a slab and they add a lot more interest than a green sticker.

[erickso1]

I assume your OP is intended to solicit reactions. Mine is: get out of expensive coins, immediately, if you really feel your condition may worsen unexpectedly. Whether or not CAC coins or whatever else is "more liquid" or not is NOT all that important in the big scheme! Do you seriously want your family to have to muck around with marketing your coins, dealing with auction companies, or dealers, and managing payments?? No way!!!!

 

My comments are based on the value of the coins you've presented in the past. You are shifting the responsibility from yourself to your family, and are hoping/expecting CAC stickers to facilitate some sort of comfort level. Have you asked them about that??

 

Let me ask you this... let's say you die from a direct meteor hit tomorrow. You may choose (A) or (B) for your family from the following options:

 

(A) $300,000 in CAC coins, attainable in a few months after the family has had to haggle and hassle with selling and auctioning the coins

 

(B) $270,000 in CA$H, and $30,000 in coins

James, you may change choice A to $500,000 in CAC coins vs. $270,000 in CA$H plus $30k in coins, and I still choose B. In case of an emergency or financial duress, collectible coins, especially to be distributed by the family, are not the place to be.

 

If we are talking direct meteor hit tomorrow I'm think more along the lines of a $270,000 super car and $30,000 in gas money so I can drive all night. I'm at least going to make the meteor work for it, and I'm going to enjoy my last 12 to 24 hours.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

James, in response to your question, my family has been instructed what to do. Frankly if something happens to me they will not need to sell my collection, but I figure they wouldn't want it lying around.

 

But I have a dealer I know very well who would buy most of my collection. Otherwise they were told to send it to heritage.

In my experience being on "the other side" (i.e. as a dealer), I think you are putting WAY TOO MUCH responsibility on your family. Trust me on this - TRUST ME - a family only wants CA$H to worry about when a loved on passes away - NOT disposition of a coin collection!

 

Basically, you are saying that you see your coins as a sizable investment. I just think that's a fool's game. Seriously, I hope only for the best for you.

 

For me, this is why my coins play absolutely ZERO role for my heirs. For all I care, they could literally rip all my coins out of their albums and spend them. I do not want them to have to spend even a split second worrying about what coins go where, and who buys what.

 

CA$H is liquid. Collectable coins are not. I don't care how many stickers you have on them.

[FishyOne]

I appreciate CAC's services and have been a collector/submitter for over 2 years.

 

Recently a large coin dealer in Texas offered this group of Morgans on eBay. I called them and offered 15% under the asking price and bought them. $2800 for the group delivered. Had they not been CAC approved, I would not have made an offer.

 

Perhaps this is not the best example of why CAC appeals to me (since this was more of an investment type purchase) but I was very happy with these pieces in-hand.

 

[AnkurJ]

Those Morgans look very nice! Congrats on your purchase

[mkman123]

wow love those NGC MS67s!