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Legend's Hot Topics article about the Registry

21 posts in this topic

That's a good article and should be read by a great many people.


My own experience had a more happy ending. I bought, at one of the Baltimore shows, the most beautifully toned silver Washington quarter I had ever laid eyes upon. The coin was graded MS67 and was in an NGC holder. Shortly after I bought it, I sent it to PCGS to cross over. This was done because I had already sent to PCGS about two dozen fabulously toned Washingtons and had wanted this coin to be in a similar holder to match the presentation of the others.


To my shock and dismay, PCGS graded the coin MS66. I immediately sent PCGS an email stating that if they could tell me why that coin was only an MS66 that I would never question them again. Otherwise, I expected the coin to be in a PCGS MS67 or better holder upon return. I received an email telling me that they had re-evaluated the coin and decided that it could go into a PCGS MS67 holder and the coin was returned to me.


A short while later the coin was broken out of its PCGS MS67 holder and submitted raw to PCGS. This time it received a grade of MS68. So, when the coin was in an NGC holder it was only viewed as an MS66 by PCGS, when it was the subject of a complaint it was re-evaluated as an MS67 by PCGS and when it was sent in raw it was viewed as an MS68 by PCGS. The time course for all of this was just about a year, perhaps a few months more. The coin went from being "worth" around $200 to being "worth" $10,000+ simply because of the new grade.

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That is a great article. I have felt the same way about PCGS’s registry for quite a while now, and that is why I do not participate in the PCGS registry any longer. Frankly, I am glad to see a major dealer taking a stand and talking about this subject in the open.


Way to go Legend! thumbsup2.gif



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Nice read, and I'm glad that Legend is saying something, but they really have been for a long time with the Legend collections in the NGC registry.


One thing to add is a remark about the collector who cashed in his chips when he could not get the cross to PCGS and then later saw the coin had crossed...


If you're in this for that level of competition, then you had better be able to suffer some significant disappointments. In the competitive world, there are few first place slots and a whole lot of room below. So, when you're that tied to competing in someone else's game, then you ar very likely to be beaten up by their rules.


It makes no sense in coin collecting to be so competitive that your participation hinges on the rules of competition, rather than on the whimsical interest in coins that attracted you there in the first place.


I feel sorry for the guy whose story Legend tells, but more for his dire egotistical ill-resolve than for having been beaten up by PCGS. Nobody likes to see the little guy (the collector) beaten up by the bully (PCGS), but this story is not that simple.



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Interesting, but perhaps Legend should support the notion of the selling the coins and not the slab. Refuse to cross coins over even if that is the only way a buyer will purchase a coin. Sure, it might mean coins are in inventory longer, but isn't it worth it to better the hobby? 893scratchchin-thumb.gif


I'm sorry people are leaving this hobby because of the politics involved in crossovers...oh wait...no I'm not. I couldn't give a [!@#%^&^] about them. If you're going to buy inserts to compete with people you probably don't know just for the false joy of thinking you are #1 - screw you! Why should I or anyone else feel sorry for you. You're a loser! You probably feel sorry enough for your pathetic self. This hobby has become too focused on whiny egotistical [!@#%^&^] who think they are special because they have the #1 set of specific inserts. WooHoo!!!


I'm tired of hearing people say the last coin they need to complete their set is in an NGC slab and they can't put it in their PCGS registry. They're . That isn't the last coin they need. What they need is a PCGS SLAB because that is what they collect. "I really love this coin, but it is in the wrong slab". People like this should be exhibited at shows and publicly laughed at.


The PCGS registry will continue to fail over time. They may want to be exclusive, but it will continue to be their downfall. The wanna-be elite will have their registry and the masses will have theirs. One will be an after thought and the other will be a truer measure of quality. Just a quick check of the registeires for Morgan dollars (probably the most popular real set) shows 247 sets for NGC and 200 for PCGS. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif


As for Bear's comment of "This one I'm sure will raise some serious hackles.", probably not even a tiny fraction of the hackles that the dealers make once he leaves their table after buy an insert at an inflated price. PCGS-only people are called PCGS-weenies for a reason!

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buy the coin not the holder



there are some great coins in pcgs and ngc holders at decent values these are the coins to buy and leave all the rest!


with registry sets AND devil.gifespecially so with devil.gif one registry devil.gif set site devil.gif in particiular devil.gif




many post 1930's coins that have 893whatthe.gifpop tops in the registry sets893whatthe.giftheir owners are extremely anxious as if more 893whatthe.gif are made their $$$ 893whatthe.gif investments decrease 893whatthe.gif expondentinally 893whatthe.gif this is why there is always a backlash many threats made by coin game players 893whatthe.gif EVEN flowerred.gif when this grading service makes more LEGIT cloud9.gif coins ........... SO who truly runs the grading game 893scratchchin-thumb.gif893scratchchin-thumb.gif893scratchchin-thumb.gif


which is okie as such it is just a hobby but just do not blame the game crazy.gif only the player shocked.gif



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I'm not sure if I am surprised. David Hall has show himself to be a complete insufficiently_thoughtful_person who has such a massive ego that those around him have to lie to his face for fear of retaliation. Truthful criticism is treated like the plague by him.


Perhaps he is just scared since he knows that PCGS is #2 and has been for a long time. The only people who still think it is #1 are his loyal Registidiots who need their ego stroked as much as he does.


If Laura would like, she can use some of my accounts over there to login and post a response to the Bitter Chipmunk.

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When I first read the article, I wondered if it was written by Laura or some ghost writer smile.gif I liked the article although I have to admit, the Registry means very little to me.


I liked the fact that she used her article to point out a few "flaws" in the system and if rumor turns out to be fact, someone is being real petty at PCGS. I wonder who?



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I read Laura's article, and I've got to say I was taken aback by the degree of sway the registry appears to have on the collector cited. Honestly, the first thing that came to mind was how miserable a hobby it would be for me if I bought a much needed coin for my set that I genuinely liked, and then sold it away because of a holder number, knowing I and several good dealers thought the coin superb. I can think of but one reason for caring about the undergrade, and it has little to do with love of coins.


Laura's an intelligent gifted dealer/collector, and she's in the coin business. I understand why she's concerned when coins don't "work". It's her profession. I'm also sure she was aware how her article would be received and felt expressing her opinion was more important than any likely consequences. She's unhappy with PCGS, and PCGS is unhappy with her. Fair enough, I'd say. Perhaps that's as it should be. It's hard to be happy with results you disagree with, and it's hard to accept your critics as partners. What I don't understand is how a collector would so distance themselves from the real hobby.


Since coin grading is somewhat subjective within a narrow range, and sometimes influenced by taste, aren't we all really after a credible grade? I don't mean a perfect grade, an overgrade/undergrade, or our own grade. Aren't we really only concerned that the holder grade be credible? Isn't it enough to see a holdered coin and say "I don't like it for that money", or "It's worth more than that to me" ?


If you're playing at the level the registry "competition" portends and you really care about the certs, put together the right collection, stun the TPG management, impress the hobby, and it'll get pedigreed, holdered, and held up for all to see with grades you really like. I think they (the TPGs) still like superb collections as much as we do. I guess in that circumstance, the TPG's would want your set in their holders more than you need their certs, and would certainly respect your eye.


I'll continue to view the registry as a convenient online tool that allows me to share my modest collection. I'll take from it what I want. I hope to never let it take from me what I want.

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98% of Laura's article was right on target and well written. One or two small snipes @ PCGS but well thought out and the idea will require PCGS TREAT NGC Coins as equals. that's the stopper!! 893frustrated.gif

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well here is my take.............


laura hit the nail on the head....and david`s thumb was in the way


my conclusions


1) ngc properly grades coins for the most part....and are by far the most consistent where as pcgs is all over the map...yes sometimes ngc undergrades coins and i understand why......they just dont want to hand out several thousand dollars in value with one grading fee..... and sometimes they over grade them ( from the technical side...aka market grading ) because of a superior look of the coin ( toning or luster ) because the coin just isnt worth the lesser grade in reality....pcgs on the other hand does not believe in the fact that 2 coins in the same grade could be miles apart in value ( or they want the market to decide ..which btw is very hard for less than experienced collectors )...THUS TO ME NGC IS MORE COLLECTOR FRIENDLY


2) pcgs on the other hand is sometimes ( much more than ngc ) is all over the map and doesnt mind being so because it increases submissions and revenue and income which is vital for stock options of a public company and those that run it.....i have had the same coin graded at pcgs 64....66.....65....67....which did increase their income until they get it right....but this is what really bugs me....a lot of pcgs coins are worth more because they are undergraded more than ngc...thus dealers who play the pcgs " game " ( more like fraud to me ) can cherry pick the undergraded coins out of the collectors boxes and pay healthy prices for them because they will get the upgrade and the increased value the collector left on the table



3) time....this is a collectors best friend and a dealers enemy...buy great coins and wait.....


bottonline is


1) have the knowledge.....know the market....know how the game is played ..have passion for you coins...be a good grader ( at least be a verifier where as you say..." i verify the grade and agree ")......know that time in the hobby with all of the above is the key to success....


here is a little ditty for you and a great example of knowledge of the market knowledge and knowing this ( and others ) wil make you a winner in coins


in a series where a date say 32-s ...the pcgs pop in 67 is 0....the ncg pop in 67 is 3...and has been so for a while...after a period of time the upgrade community will of tired of making the first pcgs 67 ( aka pop 1 ) and move on...thus wanting to cash out their top of the heap coin they will send it to ngc for proper grading....thus back in comes in ngc 67 and the new pop in 67 for ngc is 4...now if you owned 2 or all 3 of the other ngc 67 coins....do you think it would be safe to assume there is a good chance of you owning most of if not all of the top dogs????now where does that put you????now its just a matter of time, logistics and knowledge before your efforts are rewarded


personally ...and i think i speak for most all knowledgable collectors when i say i love the pcgs/ngc phenom because it gives us an advantage.....i love it when a pcgs nerd is not intersted in a coin because of the holder it is in...its less competition thus cheaper.......thus more value......and i will reap the rewards later as gradeflation catches up...please dont think that joe scheislers ( sp ) commem set is the best that was ever built...its not..some of his coins were shepherd`s old time ms 66 coins now in 68 holders....but if you follow my theory it is nearly impossible to build the best set ever in 3 years and sell.....the coins needed to do it are in too strong a hands to do it in such a short time....thus my time theory....time in the market coupled with knowledge and a good eye will be very hard to beat


gregg bingham


ps...gawd i love monsters!!!!!!!!!! foreheadslap.gif

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but if you follow my theory it is nearly impossible to build the best set ever in 3 years and sell.....the coins needed to do it are in too strong a hands to do it in such a short time


It can be done ... if one is lucky and can finance entire sets to get the few coins needed. I started the seated dollar set at FUN 2003 and pretty much finished it after acquiring the JFS set in February 2004. That's 13 months! But along the way I had to buy the Sterling collection in its entirety, the Share collection in its entirety, the JFS collection in its entirety and part of Lee and Akers' sets. Add in a few individual upgrades and there you have it. I had to buy and sell off $7M in duplicates to build that set.

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I think that HRH is suffering from the "Pride goes before the fall" syndrome. Banning critics will not work forever in an open market or society. Personally, I am not motivated by nor have the resources to participate in the top tiers of the registry race. However, I have many sets listed in the registry and have bought coins from Legend.


I have not bought anything from any CU entity since HRH fired QDB. My business with them was small (about $15-20K in B&M Auctions per year) and I'm sure that the loss did not even get noticed. I'm also sure HRH has lost other business because of his intolerence toward critics. CU is a public corporation and, as such, should not be at the mercy of their CEO's personal and intolerent behavior.



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>>>It can be done ... if one is lucky and can finance entire sets to get the few coins needed>>>>


br....errr tdn.....yes it can thats why i said " nearly impossible "....i said it for you as i knew youd answer....you know the moon was in the 7th house and jupiter aligned with mars when you did that :-)....ahhh timing...its a great thing


tdn....dum-dum dah dum de do wa......oh oh oh yea......tell laura i love her!!!


will ya


c u in pit

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I'm disappointed with David Hall's letter. While I don't know all of the facts surrounding his response, the tone seems overly harsh. I believe the hobby (errrr... industry) is hurt by this type of incident. I can only hope that Mr. Hall will reconsider his actions and address the collector's experience described in Laurie Sperber's article. If Mr. Hall were to survey his customers, I believe that many similar stories would surface.


I have observed in the Morgan Dollar series that PCGS coins seem to have a greater variance in quality than NGC although as a rule I believe that PCGS tends to undergrade more than they overgrade. While this may at first seem positive, "outliers" are undesirable in the manufauring of any product including PCGS slabbed coins.


As for slabs, the coins in my collection don't have them. For example, one of the two 1895-O AU 58 DMPL Morgan dollars listed in the NGC population reports no longer exists as the coin is stored in my album. I can more easily study an unusual coin such as this if it is stored in this way (just try counting the number of edge reeds when the coin is in the slab!).


I like the service that NGC, PCGS and ANACS provide in athenticating coins and offering an opinion of their grade. I just try to remember that the grade on the label is just an opinion. I, as a collector, must make the final judgement whether a coin is "worth" $200 or $10,000. I realize there is money to be made by making a number, but that's not why I collect coins.


I appreciate the collector services that NGC provides and when it becomes time to sell the collection that I have been assembling for nearly 20 years, NGC will grade it.

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