Boat show, cat show, gem show, coin show, doll show, orthodontic show – ?

[RWB]

Boat show, cat show, gem show, coin show, doll show, orthodontic show – what’s the difference?

 

A lot of special interest organizations have “shows” that are much better attended than “coin shows.” Why is this? What are the similarities and differences? Do coin shows need to change? Are coin shows important to the hobby? As long as dealers and promoters make money, does anyone care?

 

[dooly]

Good question ,, from the UK perspective they dont work and cannot work due to a number of things .. but most of all the type of material we all collect "COINS" the problem is that they are a "NONE SHOW'Y" item .. a boat car even bottle shows can put on a display of items which can have a visual impact .. coins cannot do this .. as you have to have them in the hand and look closely .. that's why they are really swap meets or coin fairs .. the second comes from the non show'y point .. general public will not Just pop in and have a look as they would if it was a say car show as they would be greeted with rows and rows of boxes and cabinets with do not touch etc. also we have to blame ourselves .. over hear the coin world is so cleeky or introverted at these "shows" that even for hardened collectors it can be intimidating

 

so no public so no new fresh blood so less and less attendance

 

Normal stall at a UK show

[johnny9434]

that reminds me, the bottle show will be coming around here soon. off topic i know but just the same

[bochiman]

I don't think every major city has a show, multiple times/year. I don't think many minor citties have shows.

 

So, when a show occurs, it is a bigger deal.

 

Also, to equate to a show that is FOR the professionals in that industry is a miscomparison, imho.

 

Then, some of the comparisons you place are entirely different type of beasts......a cat show? People are there for a differnent reason than at a coin show.

 

To me, coin shows are a place for me, as a collector, to try to sell items from my collection that no longer meet the need (I have pretty much given up on that unless it is bullion as I get tired of being totally lowballed) or to find/buy things for my collection. The latter gets extremely hard as I get more specialized and have found the easier to find items.

 

So, it turns into more of a treasure hunt and socialization event. I can't rely on dealers to be there the last day of the event, they are often trying to set up on the first day and do their own shopping on that day as well, so my times are limited. Then, when they make major shows 4-5 days, including normal workweek days, it just doesn't happen for me.

 

Add to the above that, for many folks, they keep their coin collecting under wraps when it comes to talking about it with others, and it isn't surprising, to me, that there appears to be less attendance. People talk about a boat and wanting one, and will often go and dream. People love their cats and go to the shows. Etc etc etc.

 

Over the last few years, I have read more than a few posts about burning out at the shows, by dealers, as they travel...sometimes they spend more time traveling, if they hit all the major shows/auctions, than they do at home. Also, when selling boats, you have a few models there and sell from that (people can see what they get). With coins, most of them are unique in some ways (toning/classic coin look/etc) and so if it isn't there, it doesn't sell. Dealers can't always bring every coin they have. They have to pick and choose. So, as a collector, if you aren't finding the coins you want at the shows you go to, sometimes it isn't worth going (at the very least, you aren't spending money). If you aren't attending, or spending money, then the dealers have less reason to go.

 

Bottom line......promoters need to do a better job and stop competing with each other when it comes to scheduling shows (good luck with that) and dealers need to do a better job of making themselves more customer friendly (not every dealer, but a large number....and "customer friendly" has many meanings).

 

Here in the PNW, we don't have many good (more than a dozen tables or so) coin shows per year. I would have to take off from work, pay plane/hotel fees, and risk not finding what I want, in order to go to major shows. Not usually gonna happen for many of us. My son goes to local shows with me, but I am not taking him out of school for the shows.

 

Also, for me, FUN is terribly timed. Right after Christmas and New Years and usually conflicting with CES. May be right for some folks, but not me.

[Raisethis2]

There are 3 coin shows here each month that have about 30 to 45 dealers at each. They are fairly well attended by the public but have been well publicized by the promoter N.O.I.S.E. who's been hosting them 30 years or more.

 

That said, I haven't been able to buy anything at a show in a year. The Dealers all are so unrealistic in their pricing that the only things I even shop for are really eye popping

examples of coins I like because I know that the premiums required to get them will require me to hang onto them the rest of my days.

 

Similarly, we just had the Central States Show here in the Chicago Suburbs this past weekend. While there I thought I'd get a feel for the actual value of an MS 65 1917 red/brown Lincoln (in an NGC holder) I bought at auction one week earlier. After browsing for a second day I pulled the coin from my pocket and asked a Dealer who had a mountain of Lincolns in his cases what it should sell for. He consulted his Grey Sheet then told me $20.

 

Mind you, he had an MS 65 1917 NGC Red/Brown Lincoln in his case stickered at $130.

 

I buy and sell at auctions now anyway. This episode reminds me why. I understand that Dealers dedicate their time on weekends, pay table and case rental fees, lug around suitcases full of heavy coins, often are required to drive to shows (because air travel is nearly impossible), constantly have to be on guard for theft and often have to educate the buyers before they can make a sale, but still, pricing has become silly.

 

When they grumble they are having a bad show so loudly to others that the public hears their complaint maybe their business model needs review. Maybe the Dealer to Dealer trades help them get and move merchandise but from where I sit all the paperwork and coin cases should be off the glass and the salesman's hat should go on when the doors open to the public. Finally, if they use the Grey Sheet they should remember it's a 2 way street.

 

 

[comicdonna]

Boat show, cat show, gem show, coin show, doll show, orthodontic show – what’s the difference?

 

A lot of special interest organizations have “shows” that are much better attended than “coin shows.” Why is this? What are the similarities and differences? Do coin shows need to change? Are coin shows important to the hobby? As long as dealers and promoters make money, does anyone care?

Perhaps coin shows need costumes. Lady Liberty ect... I think Shane mentioned showing up at a coin show in tights.

 

Lincoln, Washington Franklin ect... Also, be sure to include plenty of women in costume.

[comicdonna]

Boat show, cat show, gem show, coin show, doll show, orthodontic show – what’s the difference?

 

A lot of special interest organizations have “shows” that are much better attended than “coin shows.” Why is this? What are the similarities and differences? Do coin shows need to change? Are coin shows important to the hobby? As long as dealers and promoters make money, does anyone care?

Perhaps coin shows need costumes. Lady Liberty ect... I think Shane mentioned showing up at a coin show in tights.

 

Lincoln, Washington Franklin ect... Also, be sure to include plenty of women in costume.

I mean:

 

Mark Feld could dress up as Lincoln.

Chris could be George Washington.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Boat show, cat show, gem show, coin show, doll show, orthodontic show whats the difference?

 

A lot of special interest organizations have shows that are much better attended than coin shows. Why is this? What are the similarities and differences? Do coin shows need to change? Are coin shows important to the hobby? As long as dealers and promoters make money, does anyone care?

Perhaps coin shows need costumes. Lady Liberty ect... I think Shane mentioned showing up at a coin show in tights.

 

Lincoln, Washington Franklin ect... Also, be sure to include plenty of women in costume.

I mean:

 

Mark Feld could dress up as Lincoln.

Chris could be George Washington.

 

And you could be Martin Van Buren....

 

[Oldtrader3]

I used to attend Long Beach three times a year when I lived in the LA area and several shows in the Bay area before I moved up here. That was a while ago and things were not so networked then. The coin shows that I have been to at Tacoma Dome and a couple other venues and here in Washington are more like the old local club shows which I attended years ago. Even Tacoma dome is not a large show usually and did not at least the last time I went, have much slabbed material.

 

Oddly enough, I have never attended a coin auction despite having bought and sold at auction for many years. I usually used a proxy dealer for bidding on anything serious or just bid on pictures and take my chances.

 

When I was working, I usually had to plan around career, family and business travel which meant I usually got there Sunday late morning, paid and missed most of the show because most out-of-town dealers had left already. I understand the why of this, it is the wherefore of finding coins that baffles me in this situation. Just the reflections of a collector.

[James_OldeTowne]

Boat show, cat show, gem show, coin show, doll show, orthodontic show – what’s the difference?

 

A lot of special interest organizations have “shows” that are much better attended than “coin shows.” Why is this? What are the similarities and differences? Do coin shows need to change? Are coin shows important to the hobby? As long as dealers and promoters make money, does anyone care?

It's a regional thing. For the most part, the two or three shows a year here in St. Louis are extremely well attended, as is the three-times-per-year show in Springfield, IL. Much of the times, one literally can barely shoulder through the crowd. Honestly, we wouldn't want much more attendance at these shows for fear of violating fire codes.

 

Venue makes a big difference. A number of years ago, I did a huge Central States show -- I think in Detroit. The coin show was at one end of the convention center. The rest of the convention shows was dedicated to... I kid you not... a Waste Management show. This particular show was lightly attended, so at some point, I wandered over to Waste Management, and was amazed at the thick crowds present there. I had never imagined that there was such strong interested in buying and selling garbage at a show.

[RWB]

Hmmm...I've been to some coin shows that must have been run by a "waste management" company.

 

The bourse used to be ancillary to a convention of coin collectors; there was limited interest in attracting the public. Now the convention is ancillary to the bourse, and the bourse does not seem to attract the public like other product shows. The bourse at every show I’ve attended seems to be setup to avoid the public – look at a coin show, then compare to the local proctology trade show.

 

[Arizonadesertrat]

"...I had never imagined that there was such strong interested in buying and selling garbage at a show."

 

At the risk of stating the obvious, it does seem that this also applies to much of the coin business.

[Oldtrader3]

There appears to be a detachment of expectations and no working channel of communication at work here with many dealers. On the one hand, you have collector's who wait for a show with an expectation among collectors that a coin show is where one buys and sells coins to the public?

 

On the other hand, there seems to be a different expectation of many dealers as to what a "coin show" is and what their expectations are for a successful show? I can sense that I personally have not a whit of insight into this alternative dealer expectation except to ask questions and have dealers look right through me. I do not want to be treated this way and would appreciate someone please being kind enough to clue me in and inject a little clarity and insight onto this apparently less than optimal, two way communication?

 

Not trying to be smart, just trying to understand why I have wasted so much time at shows in past years, more-so each year it seems? Time passes and with fewer dealers seeming to display any interest in communication with me as a collector interested in buying coins at a coin show. I am obviously playing on the wrong set of tracks of this situation.

 

Silly of me, I know but I thought the construct and context of "coin show" was pretty straight forward?

[dooly]

"Not trying to be smart, just trying to understand why I have wasted so much time at shows in past years, more-so each year it seems? Time passes and with fewer dealers seeming to display any interest in communication with me as a collector interested in buying coins at a coin show. I am obviously playing on the wrong set of tracks of this situation"

 

Could it be as simple as they have no passion for coins/hobby any more. and must look at the bottom line or there guaranteed "regulars/buddys"

 

and i think this is why you can still Cherry pick after all the books and stuff which has come out over the years .. because they do not have the passion to hunt any more and just get the regular price guides out and add 25% to be knocked down 10-15% by the regular punter

 

 

[Oldtrader3]

Good point, Dooly.

[BillJones]

Not trying to be smart, just trying to understand why I have wasted so much time at shows in past years, more-so each year it seems? Time passes and with fewer dealers seeming to display any interest in communication with me as a collector interested in buying coins at a coin show. I am obviously playing on the wrong set of tracks of this situation.

 

 

Two points

 

First, you have probably grown as a collector, and your tastes have matured to the point where you are only looking for better material. In addition to that, as your collection advances there are fewer items on your want list to fill.

 

Second, as a dealer I learned how hard it was to get quality 19th century and early 20th century material into my inventory. When it came to 18th century material it was almost like pounding salt. I could buy Morgan dollars all day long, including most of the key dates. I could also find late date Walkers and the old commemorative half dollars fairly consistently. BUT if I wanted even the most common dates in the way of type coins, it was a uphill search; and those coins usually did not stay in my inventory for long.

 

I view myself as an above average collector with above average, but not snobbish, tastes. Many dealers do not know coins and tokens as well as I do. Even with the knowledge and the willingness to dig out the more unusual coins, I did not find as many pieces as I would have liked when I was a dealer.

[BillJones]

One of the big problems here is Florida is that there are too many coin shows. The promoters have learned that scheduling shows on top of each other is a fatal mistake for both shows. When they have learned is that they can’t all have monthly shows and expect them to survive. Quarterly or biannual shows would be a better bet, but many of them have been slow to learn that lesson. Collectors only have so much money, especially in this economy, there are too many shows and too few collector dollars to be spent.

[Raisethis2]

In response to BillJones and his difficulty finding any 18th and 19th century type coins I find the same thing to be true. For those coins not melted through the years, I think it boils down to the perception that these are the coins worth "investing in" and so remain in safety deposit boxes across America.

 

I really believe that populations of common dates as well as key dates are far less that standard logic would suggest. This is reflected in prices and also is a factor in scarcity.

 

Regarding Dealer to Dealer activity. Most shows have an official period where Dealers can trade prior to opening to the public. At the Central States show here last week that was a full day and a half before the show opened up to the public. The fact that there's a charge for this activity is unfortunate, but understandable.

 

When the show opens to the public it seems that the "Vest Pocket Dealers" are the next group to make the rounds. While most have more value in their bag that I have in my entire collection, and will drive commerce far more than common collectors, I still get peeved when there's so much "stuff" covering the Dealer cases that the public can't see the coins inside.

 

 

[WoodenJefferson]

Ok, to answer your 'probing' question, what would people rather pay to attend?

 

See the King of Siam collection...or

 

The Batmobile?

 

Both are unique and not everyone can own one, but in reality, coins are way down on the list of things people want to see. The perception of a "coin show" is a fallacy, that there will be coins for showing, whereas 99% of the coins that are there, are for sale, to buy right then and there and...to take with you.

 

 

[RWB]

Maybe a "solution" is to make coins "showy?"

[Oldtrader3]

Bill, you raise good points. They are thoughtful and the best verbalization of this issue that I have ever gotten from a dealer. What you say is certainly true about many representative and clean 19th and 20th Century advanced collector coins. they do not appear often and are not sold in any numbers which would certainly not sustain lasting dealer sales and income activity. I guess that these coins are deeply held by their owners and not easy to lodge loose into the market place. Thank you for thinking this through so well and giving me a succinct answer.

 

The bright spot for dealers with me is that I still do build specific sets, like WLH's. which at least creates some dealer demand for a wider span of type material. This set is not much more than I collector's set but is fun to do. It is also a little easier to find specimen coins for.

 

I am happy to pay much more than sheet for clean, classic material when I can find a nice piece that I like. The problem for dealers is that I like many, almost never sell this stuff once I get it. Only once in all of these years, did I sell a major portion of my central collection a few years ago during a time of major health and other personal crises.

 

At this point, I will never rise to my former level of collecting again but I had my run and am fortunate and thankful for that . I will probably never again be more than a happy, small time collector now. However, point well taken, this was the first time in nearly 30 years that I had even considered selling some of this material and I spread sales over three dealer auctions to promote focus on the coin type and to fit the format of the auction.

 

 

[BillJones]

The Bat Mobile or the King of Siam Proof Set ... For me that's easy, the King of Siam Proof Set.

 

Of all the great rarities, that Proof set is one item I would go out of my way to purchase if I were a collector on that level, but I'm not.

 

As for the car, I really like antique automobiles, but my tastes are different from most car buffs. For car buffs it seems that race cars, sports cars, convertibles and Bat Mobiles really float their boat. I like fancy luxury cars or cars that are exotic, unusual and often rare. So the Bat Mobile does not really float my boat.

 

For example here is a 1931 Pierce Arrow that is on display at the car museum at the Imperial Palace in Las Vegas. A cousin of my grandmother married a wealthy man who owned a Pierce Arrow. That gentleman paid for my father’s education at a private school in Dover, Delaware in the early 1930s during the Great Depression. I doubt that “Cousin Peal’s” Pierce Arrow was a fancy as this one, but it was a Pierce Arrow, which was well beyond a Cadillac in its day. And no our family did not inherit any of his money.

 

To be a car collector one must be good car mechanic, very wealthy, have the storage space or a combination of those, which I don’t have. So I just look and admire.

 

 

 

[Conder101]

Ok, to answer your 'probing' question, what would people rather pay to attend?

 

See the King of Siam collection...or

 

The Batmobile?

If the coins were still in the Diplomatic presentation holder where they belong, the King of Siam set. but since they are now all in just nondesript nonhistorical pieces of plastic, I'll take the Batmobile.