NewPs - One stickered, one didn't

[BKW]

 

Here are two new purchases I just received back from CAC. The Walker has beautiful golden toning and great luster. The reverse is MS 66 IMHO. I had no doubt it would sticker.

 

I'm surprised the Morgan didn't, though. It's clean with nary a mark on Liberty's cheek. I'm waiting to hear back from the dealer I submitted through to see if JA had any comments on why the Morgan didn't sticker. Maybe he felt a 65 should have more luster? Anyone here care to venture a guess as to why they think it didn't sticker? Regardless, I like the coin.

 

 

[mkman123]

nice coins with our without the green sticker, enjoy them

[RWB]

What's the purpose of adding a colored sticker? Does that cover a crack in the plastic?

 

Both seem to be really nice coins - nice additions to your collection!

[AnkurJ]

Too much chatter on libertys cheek.

[MarkFeld]

Curiously, what did you hope to gain by submitting those two coins to CAC?

[BKW]

Curiously, what did you hope to gain by submitting those two coins to CAC?

 

I live very close to CAC so I didn't have to pay shipping or insurance. Total cost was $20.00. Figured at that price it was worth it from a cost/benefit analysis.

[wheat'swheats]

Here are two new purchases I just received back from CAC. The Walker has beautiful golden toning and great luster. The reverse is MS 66 IMHO. I had no doubt it would sticker.

 

I'm surprised the Morgan didn't, though. It's clean with nary a mark on Liberty's cheek. I'm waiting to hear back from the dealer I submitted through to see if JA had any comments on why the Morgan didn't sticker. Maybe he felt a 65 should have more luster? Anyone here care to venture a guess as to why they think it didn't sticker? Regardless, I like the coin.

 

 

JA is just extremely tough on lincolns and morgans.

[FishyOne]

Curiously, what did you hope to gain by submitting those two coins to CAC?

 

I live very close to CAC so I didn't have to pay shipping or insurance. Total cost was $20.00. Figured at that price it was worth it from a cost/benefit analysis.

 

You paid for the Morgan that didn't sticker?

 

The Walker is beautiful and looks like a high end 65, the Morgan looks like a 64+ in the images.

[michael]

wow 1878-s morgan one of the most underrated and scarcest dates that you never see for sale in ms 65

 

wow wow

 

my guess would be based on

 

1--- i dont see any pvc on the coin

2-- i dont see any counting wheel damage

 

my opinion based on photos and yes i know you cant grade a coin with photos but here goes

 

i bet JA sayz it just falls short of solid for the grade B coin it is a C+ coin an ms65 just not quite a solid for the grade ms 65 hence no cac sticker

 

above is my opinion based on photos

 

see below

 

 

Many coins that CAC has reviewed, but did not sticker, have been accurately graded by PCGS or NGC. However, CAC stickers only coins that are solid for the grade, often referred to as B quality coins, and those that are considered high-end for the grade, which are often called A quality coins. Those that are accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, but are considered low-end for the grade and often referred to as C quality coins, are not stickered by CAC.

 

 

 

 

[michael]

it is a good coin with good eye appeal but as you say since you have seen it in hand maybe for such a san francisco date JA needed to see more lustre??

 

this is a possibility as the coin has been lightly dipped in the not too distant past

and might have subdued the lustre??

 

 

please let us know what JA sayz

 

again the coin does have really good appeal to my minds eye based on the photos

[michael]

after looking at the coin again the reverse is an all there ms65

 

the obverse just misses ms65 or is a just made it ms65 C coin in my view

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I'm surprised the Morgan didn't, though. It's clean with nary a mark on Liberty's cheek. I'm waiting to hear back from the dealer I submitted through to see if JA had any comments on why the Morgan didn't sticker. Maybe he felt a 65 should have more luster? Anyone here care to venture a guess as to why they think it didn't sticker?

The sticker is applied to coins that the CAC wants to make a market in. Apparently, they don't want to make a market in 1878-S Morgan dollars at that grade. Your coin looks like an average MS-65 from the photos, and personally, I can understand why someone wouldn't necessarily want to make a market in ordinary gems.

 

If you like the coins, I'm not sure why having a sticker would enhance your enjoyment . You might be better served to simply continue to enjoy your coin collection as-is, and don't fret over what other people or corporations think of it (aside from NGC).

[johnny9434]

i do like the half better .

[MarkFeld]

I'm surprised the Morgan didn't, though. It's clean with nary a mark on Liberty's cheek. I'm waiting to hear back from the dealer I submitted through to see if JA had any comments on why the Morgan didn't sticker. Maybe he felt a 65 should have more luster? Anyone here care to venture a guess as to why they think it didn't sticker?

The sticker is applied to coins that the CAC wants to make a market in. Apparently, they don't want to make a market in 1878-S Morgan dollars at that grade. Your coin looks like an average MS-65 from the photos, and personally, I can understand why someone wouldn't necessarily want to make a market in ordinary gems.

 

If you like the coins, I'm not sure why having a sticker would enhance your enjoyment . You might be better served to simply continue to enjoy your coin collection as-is, and don't fret over what other people or corporations think of it (aside from NGC).

 

James, I believe that your stated conclusion ("Apparently, they don't want to make a market in 1878-S Morgan dollars at that grade.) is incorrect. They have stickered coins of that date and grade and do make a market in them. For whatever reason, this particular coin was simply not up to their standards.

[jesbroken]

I do see the coin as Michael noted, a good solid reverse and an obverse with too much chatter on the face, neck and left of liberty field, which might have precluded it from CAC's sticker requirement. Gorgeous half, btw.

Jim

[physics-fan3.14]

I do see the coin as Michael noted, a good solid reverse and an obverse with too much chatter on the face, neck and left of liberty field, which might have precluded it from CAC's sticker requirement. Gorgeous half, btw.

Jim

 

I agree. It looks like an average to below average 65, due to the chatter on the obverse. This is an accurately graded 65, and should sell for 65 money - but because CAC did not bless it using their arbitrary and non-published standards, it will most likely be viewed as a sub-par piece and trade at a discount.

[BKW]

Thanks for the comments everyone. In hand the coin actually has a very clean cheek. The pics make it look worse for some reason. It may not be an A coin but I certainly don't think it's a C coin. Anyway, I don't live and die by the sticker so I will continue to enjoy it. If I hear anything back from JA as to why it didn't sticker I will post about it.

[MarkFeld]

I do see the coin as Michael noted, a good solid reverse and an obverse with too much chatter on the face, neck and left of liberty field, which might have precluded it from CAC's sticker requirement. Gorgeous half, btw.

Jim

 

I agree. It looks like an average to below average 65, due to the chatter on the obverse. This is an accurately graded 65, and should sell for 65 money - but because CAC did not bless it using their arbitrary and non-published standards, it will most likely be viewed as a sub-par piece and trade at a discount.

 

Maybe I am interpreting the above post incorrectly. But part of it sounds like a criticism of CAC - for not publishing its standards.

 

I have already mentioned this previously, with respect to grading companies, but will do so again, here. In the case of uncirculated and Proof coins (as opposed to circulated coins), published grading standards are generally not very helpful.

 

For example, how would you distinguish an MS64 from an MS65 Morgan dollar in a meaningful way, with the use of published standards? Marks, their size, number, placement, etc. are unique to each coin. Taking other factors such as strike, luster and eye-appeal into consideration, as well, there is no way to publish standards which can distinguish between two different grades (other than perhaps 69 and 70).

 

For anyone who disagrees, please post standards for MS64 and MS65 or for MS65 and MS66 Morgan Dollars in a way that allows a reader to distinguish which coin is which.

[Raisethis2]

Curious, does CAC ever consider coins for sticker that are not NGC or PCGS?

[physics-fan3.14]

Mark, its not really just the published standards - it just seems arbitrary. Can you reliably and consistently tell the difference between 65.1, 65.4, and 65.7? Because that's what poeple are saying CAC can do. It just seems like an excercise in the ridiculous. If John likes the coin, he stickers it, if he doesn't it gets rejected. Is there any redundancy, like the three-grader system that NGC uses? Everyone always talks about "Send it to CAC and it'll get a sticker if John likes it." Sorry, but John and I have different tastes. Yeah, he may be very influential and very knowledgeable, and I have great respect for him. But this whole CAC thing seems very arbitrary. So yes, it is a criticism of CAC.

[physics-fan3.14]

Curious, does CAC ever consider coins for sticker that are not NGC or PCGS?

No. They never have, and they probably never will.

[FishyOne]

I do see the coin as Michael noted, a good solid reverse and an obverse with too much chatter on the face, neck and left of liberty field, which might have precluded it from CAC's sticker requirement. Gorgeous half, btw.

Jim

 

I agree. It looks like an average to below average 65, due to the chatter on the obverse. This is an accurately graded 65, and should sell for 65 money - but because CAC did not bless it using their arbitrary and non-published standards, it will most likely be viewed as a sub-par piece and trade at a discount.

 

Trade at a discount because it doesn't have a CAC sticker? Are you joking?

 

A common date Morgan should not, and likely would not, trade at a discount due to the lack of a CAC sticker. I've sold many common date Morgans that didn't sticker over the last few years. None went for a discount and none of the buyers complained they were "sub-par". A buyer would no idea if it had ever been to CAC (or not).

 

The piece in question looks like a low-end 65 and it might go a bit cheaper because of what it is.

[Crohnos01]

Maybe its just me, but this thread brings me back to some of my original thoughts about grading in general. I almost long for the days before TPGs when it was up to the individuals to assign a grade. Now it seems like everyone is hung up on which TPG slab the coin is in, what color is the insert, does it have a bean and if so which one?

 

I don't know... It kind of reminds me of my kids when they were small who would spend hours playing with the box their Christmas presents came in rather than playing with the presents themselves....

[HCumberdale]

Maybe its just me, but this thread brings me back to some of my original thoughts about grading in general. I almost long for the days before TPGs when it was up to the individuals to assign a grade. Now it seems like everyone is hung up on which TPG slab the coin is in, what color is the insert, does it have a bean and if so which one?

 

I don't know... It kind of reminds me of my kids when they were small who would spend hours playing with the box their Christmas presents came in rather than playing with the presents themselves....

 

(thumbs u

 

I don't have anything against acquiring coins that reside in a slab, and perhaps for certain series I might actually insist on it (e.g. Bust dollars); but I too feel like a lot of energy is spent on plastic and the opinion of others. Maybe if I were in the market for a "top pop" coin things would be different, but as it is...I don't really see what all the fuss is about.

[jesbroken]

Just as a side note for something I have seen occur on most all of the coin forums, in the last two years: Previously, to two years ago, whenever a coin was mentioned regarding which slab or service to use and its value, the majority of replies made the statement "buy the coin not the holder" or "learn to grade the coin and don't worry about the holder". Now this is the minority and sometimes not even mentioned. Sign of the times I guess, but I would truly think that now with all the couterfeit/fake coins and holders with coins, it would be even more paramount to learn to identify and grade the coins, as one can no longer be sure of the holder. I also do not see much being done by the tpg's to combat this. I would think something could be made accessible on the internet to allow anyone to compare a tpg's holder to the actual one for the holder number. But then that's me.

Jim

[Houston Investor]

I can't believe the Morgan did not sticker. It is a really nice coin, wellstruck, with nice luster. Perhaps they had a problem with the cheek when looking at it under good lighting and magnification vs a scan. From the scan it seems like a nice 65.

[MarkFeld]

I can't believe the Morgan did not sticker. It is a really nice coin, wellstruck, with nice luster. Perhaps they had a problem with the cheek when looking at it under good lighting and magnification vs a scan. From the scan it seems like a nice 65.

 

Yet, we don't know what it looks like in hand.

[coinman_23885]

Mark, its not really just the published standards - it just seems arbitrary. Can you reliably and consistently tell the difference between 65.1, 65.4, and 65.7? Because that's what poeple are saying CAC can do. It just seems like an excercise in the ridiculous. If John likes the coin, he stickers it, if he doesn't it gets rejected. Is there any redundancy, like the three-grader system that NGC uses? Everyone always talks about "Send it to CAC and it'll get a sticker if John likes it." Sorry, but John and I have different tastes. Yeah, he may be very influential and very knowledgeable, and I have great respect for him. But this whole CAC thing seems very arbitrary. So yes, it is a criticism of CAC.

 

I agree that there is some variation, and that sometimes I disagree with CAC's assessment. With this said, CAC is only identifying those that are either weak, solid, or high end for the grade; thus, it doesn't have the tenth of a point precision that you are implying that it does have. With this regard, I think it is easy to determine whether a coin is a low end example. I'm not sure why you have a problem with their ability to do this; you do this yourself all the time. You have often referred to coins as low end; if you can do this, why can't CAC?

 

With regards to the arbitrary nature of grading, I think this is true whether the coin is CAC approved, a non-CAC approved certified coin, or a raw coin. Eye appeal is very much a part of grading, and this is highly subjective.

[coinman_23885]

The piece in question looks like a low-end 65 and it might go a bit cheaper because of what it is.

 

I think this is what Physics meant. The coin is a low end MS65, and I would expect the auction prices to reflect this (i.e. closer to MS64 or MS64+ pricing than full MS65 pricing). CAC supposedly only stickers higher end or solid pieces, which would, presumably have sold for higher prices due to their quality anyway. The CAC sticker only serves, in my mind, to help identify these pieces for bidders who may not have the advantage of viewing the coin in hand prior to bidding. With this said, CAC and I disagree at times. There are some coins which don't sticker, but I nevertheless find nice, and presumably your bidders or buyers did too. There are also ugly coins with CAC stickers that I don't like. Presumably, these coins would fetch lower prices if other bidders agreed with me.

[mkman123]

You watch guys, there will most likely be more CAC type companies popping up in the future.

 

We got the green bean, next someone or company that has a lot of influence will have a green star or gold star sticker, then someone will have a green thumb or gold thumb sticker, etc!