CAC??? WHY BOTHER???

[coinman1794]

I agree that the CAC is essentially a market making tool but I also think this of the + and the * TPG's now include on some submissions. I think it's a virtual guarantee that coin owners will point to the green beans and somehow convince themselves that because of it asking double is reasonable and fair.

 

Having a green bean on an MS 64 1881 S dollar makes zero sense to me. Having it on an 1806 quarter eagle in MS is a different story. If it's purpose is to assure the market that the coin is "solid" for the grade it makes infinitely more sense to do so on something that matters. When I start seeing them on modern MS 70 Proof coins struck last month, that's when I'll lose all interest in them.

 

 

The NGC STAR is an eye appeal designation that is considered separate from the grade. Most star coins have rainbow color. NGC also uses the STAR to designate a coin that is PL, DPL, CAMEO, or ULTRA CAMEO on the obverse only. They felt that a simple asterisk would be better than saying "PL-OBV," etc.

[Mark T]

For $10/coin, you get a (second) highly expert opinion.

 

And if CAC stickers the coin, there is the possibility of greater liquidity and/or a better price when you want to sell.

 

CAC sometimes catches problems that the major TPG's and owners/submitters of the coins miss. So, it can be educational, even for knowledgeable collectors and dealers.

 

All things considered, I think CAC's service is a bargain.

 

+ 1

 

[wheat'swheats]

For $10/coin, you get a (second) highly expert opinion.

 

And if CAC stickers the coin, there is the possibility of greater liquidity and/or a better price when you want to sell.

 

CAC sometimes catches problems that the major TPG's and owners/submitters of the coins miss. So, it can be educational, even for knowledgeable collectors and dealers.

 

All things considered, I think CAC's service is a bargain.

 

I agree with Mark, especially with the "catches problems that the major TPG's and owners miss" part.

CAC does not catch the problems. They certify that there are no problems with the coin in the assigned grade. If there is a problem there is no sticker. I have had my feelings hurt on several occasions by the folks at CAC, but that's exactly what I pay them for. I know when it comes back with a sticker I can tell someone that I have a CAC coin for sale and there are no concerns by the buyer that the coin is not up to the grade. I have yet to send back a CAC coin, I can't say that abot all slabed coins I have bought.

Yes, CAC choses not to sticker coins that do not meet their standards for quality and eye appeal, but when they detect a problem coin, they write a note to the submitter explaining that the coin has a problem, like PVC, altered surfaces, putty, etc. I've had several coins flagged by CAC and many others have too.

I understand what you are saying but by the time JA sends you his note the coin has already been slabbed, and graded, and unless you tell the person to whom you sell or trade the coin to, only you and John know of the problem. Unless you are the exception to the rule and tell the next buyer that even though a TPG has graded the coin, CAC said the coin has a problem so they just might not want to releive you of your problem coin.

Wheat

[Mark T]

For $10/coin, you get a (second) highly expert opinion.

 

And if CAC stickers the coin, there is the possibility of greater liquidity and/or a better price when you want to sell.

 

CAC sometimes catches problems that the major TPG's and owners/submitters of the coins miss. So, it can be educational, even for knowledgeable collectors and dealers.

 

All things considered, I think CAC's service is a bargain.

 

I agree with Mark, especially with the "catches problems that the major TPG's and owners miss" part.

CAC does not catch the problems. They certify that there are no problems with the coin in the assigned grade. If there is a problem there is no sticker. I have had my feelings hurt on several occasions by the folks at CAC, but that's exactly what I pay them for. I know when it comes back with a sticker I can tell someone that I have a CAC coin for sale and there are no concerns by the buyer that the coin is not up to the grade. I have yet to send back a CAC coin, I can't say that abot all slabed coins I have bought.

 

 

Wheats:

You are not making any sense here. CAC does look for problems with coins; a problem with a coin is a reason why that coin will not get a sticker. As an example – if CAC found that a gold coin was puttied – that would be catching a problem. The reason CAC does not verify a coin is because they found something that was wrong with the coin – thus catching a problem.

[Mark T]

It is discouraging to me when I understand so many folks whose only concern is how much they will get "when it comes time to sell" (a phrase that I personally dislike). Why do individuals not understand that it might be great and wonderful to them to get huge money for their coins and horribly inflate market values, but in the long run, it deprives other true collectors from being able to afford to collect?

 

Supposedly, one of the factors that brought about the CAC was an interest in protecting great coins. I fervently believe that the best way to protect coins is to place them in the hands of true collectors, rather than speculators, slab brokers and meat markets.

 

But, manipulating markets with the only goal being to drive up the cost of better coins ultimately has the effect of diminishing the collector base, because fewer nice coins end up in permanent homes (i.e., in collections), being beyond reasonable financial means. We little guys want to purchase, treasure and protect nice coins, but are already to the point where we can't afford much of what's out there.

 

Driving up the price of the better coins simply diminishes the odds that they end up in the hands of respectful collectors. But I suppose that if your only concern is extracting every last dollar from the market "when it comes time to sell", then you probably don't care about other collectors.

 

 

James let’s be realistic here – we all want to maximize what we get for something when we sell it. However if you want to be really nice I will buy your collection at 10 % below wholesale

I have always defended CAC and will continue to do so – I think they have been a benefit to the hobby especially considering that so much is done sight unseen.

[copper toning]

Wow I did not realize just how much cac is investor based.

 

If a green been means a coin is properly graded then why pay any premium for the grade?

 

Sounds like it would be nice if CAC would accept raw coins and then submit them on your behalf and return with the sticker.

 

This would be a true insurance policy. Although this could be very damaging should the tpgs find probs with these coins. Interesting thought though.

 

I believe for now I will continue to ignore the CAC. I have no problems with it I simply do not understand what makes them so much more reliable.

[wheat'swheats]

For $10/coin, you get a (second) highly expert opinion.

 

And if CAC stickers the coin, there is the possibility of greater liquidity and/or a better price when you want to sell.

 

CAC sometimes catches problems that the major TPG's and owners/submitters of the coins miss. So, it can be educational, even for knowledgeable collectors and dealers.

 

All things considered, I think CAC's service is a bargain.

 

I agree with Mark, especially with the "catches problems that the major TPG's and owners miss" part.

CAC does not catch the problems. They certify that there are no problems with the coin in the assigned grade. If there is a problem there is no sticker. I have had my feelings hurt on several occasions by the folks at CAC, but that's exactly what I pay them for. I know when it comes back with a sticker I can tell someone that I have a CAC coin for sale and there are no concerns by the buyer that the coin is not up to the grade. I have yet to send back a CAC coin, I can't say that abot all slabed coins I have bought.

 

 

Wheats:

You are not making any sense here. CAC does look for problems with coins; a problem with a coin is a reason why that coin will not get a sticker. As an example – if CAC found that a gold coin was puttied – that would be catching a problem. The reason CAC does not verify a coin is because they found something that was wrong with the coin – thus catching a problem.

You did not understand what I said. By the time the coin is sent to CAC it has already been slabbed and graded. The problem should have been cought then. Cac will not sticker if it does not meet their specifications, but they will not tell you or me that the coin will not sticker or what the problem(and by problem, I mean why it will not sticker ie. not solid for the grade) is unless we own the coin and send it back in to CAC. By then it too late for you and me, we now own the problem.

Wheat

[mommam17]

Green bean means at least solid for the grade. A or B coins get stickered, C's do not. Coins that don't sticker does not mean they are graded wrong. JA is one of the best, so that's your reliability.

[wheat'swheats]

Green bean means at least solid for the grade. A or B coins get stickered, C's do not. Coins that don't sticker does not mean they are graded wrong. JA is one of the best, so that's your reliability.

100%

[coinman1794]

For $10/coin, you get a (second) highly expert opinion.

 

And if CAC stickers the coin, there is the possibility of greater liquidity and/or a better price when you want to sell.

 

CAC sometimes catches problems that the major TPG's and owners/submitters of the coins miss. So, it can be educational, even for knowledgeable collectors and dealers.

 

All things considered, I think CAC's service is a bargain.

 

I agree with Mark, especially with the "catches problems that the major TPG's and owners miss" part.

CAC does not catch the problems. They certify that there are no problems with the coin in the assigned grade. If there is a problem there is no sticker. I have had my feelings hurt on several occasions by the folks at CAC, but that's exactly what I pay them for. I know when it comes back with a sticker I can tell someone that I have a CAC coin for sale and there are no concerns by the buyer that the coin is not up to the grade. I have yet to send back a CAC coin, I can't say that abot all slabed coins I have bought.

Yes, CAC choses not to sticker coins that do not meet their standards for quality and eye appeal, but when they detect a problem coin, they write a note to the submitter explaining that the coin has a problem, like PVC, altered surfaces, putty, etc. I've had several coins flagged by CAC and many others have too.

I understand what you are saying but by the time JA sends you his note the coin has already been slabbed, and graded, and unless you tell the person to whom you sell or trade the coin to, only you and John know of the problem. Unless you are the exception to the rule and tell the next buyer that even though a TPG has graded the coin, CAC said the coin has a problem so they just might not want to releive you of your problem coin.

Wheat

 

Those coins go straight back to the grading services for downgrade.

[James_OldeTowne]

It is discouraging to me when I understand so many folks whose only concern is how much they will get "when it comes time to sell" (a phrase that I personally dislike). Why do individuals not understand that it might be great and wonderful to them to get huge money for their coins and horribly inflate market values, but in the long run, it deprives other true collectors from being able to afford to collect?

 

Supposedly, one of the factors that brought about the CAC was an interest in protecting great coins. I fervently believe that the best way to protect coins is to place them in the hands of true collectors, rather than speculators, slab brokers and meat markets.

 

But, manipulating markets with the only goal being to drive up the cost of better coins ultimately has the effect of diminishing the collector base, because fewer nice coins end up in permanent homes (i.e., in collections), being beyond reasonable financial means. We little guys want to purchase, treasure and protect nice coins, but are already to the point where we can't afford much of what's out there.

 

Driving up the price of the better coins simply diminishes the odds that they end up in the hands of respectful collectors. But I suppose that if your only concern is extracting every last dollar from the market "when it comes time to sell", then you probably don't care about other collectors.

 

I had never thought of it this way. With this said, isn't it fair to say that many CAC coins (i.e. premium quality pieces) were already receiving premiums when sold by owners in the know? For instance, even prior to CAC, I know of several collectors who would pay more than guide value for nice, original pieces with superb eye appeal.

The difference (at least for me) is that representative(s) of CAC acknowledge and state quite plainly that their goal is to select that part of the market for premium coins, and drive up the prices of those coins. Coincindentally, those are precisely the coins that need to end up in the hands of collectors. That is different than an organization whose goal is to drive up the value of an entire market.

 

James let’s be realistic here – we all want to maximize what we get for something when we sell it. However if you want to be really nice I will buy your collection at 10 % below wholesale

I have always defended CAC and will continue to do so – I think they have been a benefit to the hobby especially considering that so much is done sight unseen.

Mark, I always enjoy your posts . I am not suggesting that people should sell their coins at a loss. A profit is healthy for the market. What I don't comprehend, though, is the blatant disregard for common sense and decency as some people see a golden sticker, and blast out absurdly high bids on coins that, yes, are "nice", but hardly the holy grail(s) of the hobby. And I don't understand why seeing a green sticker makes so many people weak in the knees, or get dollar signs in their eyes.

 

I would love for everyone to be able to buy some coins, hold them for a few years as they enjoy the privilege of ownership, then resell them to other deserving collectors for reasonable profit. Personally though, I have basically no respect for those who want to grab onto as many coins as they can, ship them off to CAC for stickering, then hold out for every last possible penny of profit on their wares, caring little for whether or not that squeezes out the small collectors who have historically been the foundation of the hobby.

 

Mark, let's assume all of my coins are reasonably nice for the grade. If I ask for a fair 10% profit on the coins I sell you, would you accept that, stickered or not? And if I wish to buy one of your stickered coins at only a 10% profit to you, even though you suspect they might make 40% in an auction, is my offer good enough?

 

Or, do you demand that the market inflate your gains to the maximum possible level, and let us not care how that might affect the collector base?

[michael]

for short/long term coin collectors dealers etc. who have been screwed by buying problematic coins/ coins with subtle problems only to realize it later to much much later

 

cac is a venerable bargain and

 

for me this is a giant bonus when deciding on a coin

 

if i ever look at a coin that is within my specialities and that is certified by pcgs/ngc and it meets my approval

 

and

 

 

 

THE COIN HAD A CAC STICKER THIS IS JUST AN ADDED BONUS FOR AN EXTRA highly respected set of eyes and back up by a listed ( for the most part) buy prices of the coin this is quite a bonus for me

 

 

yes 99% of certified coins DONT meet my approval but those that do and happen to be cac you got the best of both worlds and a coin that will be really easy to sell for fair to even more than fair +++++++ money

[copper toning]

I would still like to know what makes cac so much more trust worthy as many seem to be suggesting?

 

Why not simply open the doors to CAC certification? Or is this the ultimate goal?

[MJ]

Because guys like John Albanese and Bill Shamhart at CAC are in the top half of the top 1% of all graders/experts that walk the American soil. In the end it's just second opinion or blessing of the TPG's verdict.

 

CAC is a fact of life in the US classic coin world. The market has spoken. You don't have to like it or abide by it. Just ignore it if it bothers you. To each is own. You have company. MJ

[FishyOne]

I would still like to know what makes cac so much more trust worthy as many seem to be suggesting?

 

Why not simply open the doors to CAC certification? Or is this the ultimate goal?

 

The founder and owner of CAC was also a founding owner of PCGS and NGC. His reputation in numismatics is beyond reproach. The goal is not for CAC to have it's own grading service. John saw a market and went for it. It works because the market has accepted it.

[coinman_23885]

Wow I did not realize just how much cac is investor based.

 

If a green been means a coin is properly graded then why pay any premium for the grade?

 

I'm not sure that a premium is being paid for the grade; rather, CAC is eliminating much of the dreck and low end material that was overpriced to begin with. Why should a just made it 65 be priced the same as a high end or solid 65? Moreover, should those low end pieces, which have saturated some areas of the market, be allowed to drag down the prices (i.e. Greysheet, etc.) of the rest of the market (see e.g. MS65 St. Gaudens Double Eagles).

 

This is, of course, not to say that there aren't nice coins without CAC's approval.

[coinman_23885]

The problem should have been cought then. Cac will not sticker if it does not meet their specifications, but they will not tell you or me that the coin will not sticker or what the problem(and by problem, I mean why it will not sticker ie. not solid for the grade) is unless we own the coin and send it back in to CAC. By then it too late for you and me, we now own the problem.

Wheat

 

Once CAC has refused to sticker a coin, you can identify and unload the less desirable pieces using the funds to buy nicer coins. For instance, you can sell these pieces to market makers at sight unseen bid levels. Alternatively, some people put them on eBay for 60-70% of guide value, and the coins are often readily snapped up.

[coinman_23885]

Because guys like John Albanese and Bill Shamhart at CAC are in the top half of the top 1% of all graders/experts that walk the American soil. In the end it's just second opinion or blessing of the TPG's verdict.

 

CAC is a fact of life in the US classic coin world. The market has spoken. You don't have to like it or abide by it. Just ignore it if it bothers you. To each is own. You have company. MJ

 

+1 (thumbs u

 

You can ignore the trend if you want, but the prices are real.

[FishyOne]

Thought this might be a good time to toss in a few of my latest "green beans". I sent these in 2 weeks ago; on the way back from New Jersey now.

 

First is from Mark Feld Rare Coins. It is a 1910 Lincoln mattie in PCGS 65BN plastic. Mark did not know if it had ever been to CAC. It has now!

 

PCGS/CAC PR65BN:

 

 

Next is a 1855-O SLH from Great Collections that was in an ICG MS64 holder. It sold for 62 retail money. I submitted it to PCGS with a 63 minimum and it crossed at 63. Off to CAC where it got a green bean.

 

PCGS/CAC MS63:

 

 

Last is an 1813 CBH from Heritage. Price wasn't bad since the Heritage photos were not good.

 

NGC/CAC XF45:

 

[Mark T]

For $10/coin, you get a (second) highly expert opinion.

 

And if CAC stickers the coin, there is the possibility of greater liquidity and/or a better price when you want to sell.

 

CAC sometimes catches problems that the major TPG's and owners/submitters of the coins miss. So, it can be educational, even for knowledgeable collectors and dealers.

 

All things considered, I think CAC's service is a bargain.

 

I agree with Mark, especially with the "catches problems that the major TPG's and owners miss" part.

CAC does not catch the problems. They certify that there are no problems with the coin in the assigned grade. If there is a problem there is no sticker. I have had my feelings hurt on several occasions by the folks at CAC, but that's exactly what I pay them for. I know when it comes back with a sticker I can tell someone that I have a CAC coin for sale and there are no concerns by the buyer that the coin is not up to the grade. I have yet to send back a CAC coin, I can't say that abot all slabed coins I have bought.

 

 

Wheats:

You are not making any sense here. CAC does look for problems with coins; a problem with a coin is a reason why that coin will not get a sticker. As an example – if CAC found that a gold coin was puttied – that would be catching a problem. The reason CAC does not verify a coin is because they found something that was wrong with the coin – thus catching a problem.

You did not understand what I said. By the time the coin is sent to CAC it has already been slabbed and graded. The problem should have been cought then. Cac will not sticker if it does not meet their specifications, but they will not tell you or me that the coin will not sticker or what the problem(and by problem, I mean why it will not sticker ie. not solid for the grade) is unless we own the coin and send it back in to CAC. By then it too late for you and me, we now own the problem.

Wheat

 

 

Wow I think you are missing the point. The reason CAC was formed was because there were so many problem and over graded coins certified by the TPG’s. Obviously the TPG’s were getting loose and sloppy and missing things. Thus the TPG’s missed issues with coins that would have either kept them out of a holder as well as coins that were over graded or very weak for the grade. Just because a coin does not get a CAC sticker does not mean there was a problem – it could be as simple as the coin being very weak for the grade. I have had many coin’s certified by CAC and a number rejected. They won’t send an explanation as to why your coin did not pass but I have called and spoke to JA about why some of my coins did not pass.

 

[wheat'swheats]

For $10/coin, you get a (second) highly expert opinion.

 

And if CAC stickers the coin, there is the possibility of greater liquidity and/or a better price when you want to sell.

 

CAC sometimes catches problems that the major TPG's and owners/submitters of the coins miss. So, it can be educational, even for knowledgeable collectors and dealers.

 

All things considered, I think CAC's service is a bargain.

 

I agree with Mark, especially with the "catches problems that the major TPG's and owners miss" part.

CAC does not catch the problems. They certify that there are no problems with the coin in the assigned grade. If there is a problem there is no sticker. I have had my feelings hurt on several occasions by the folks at CAC, but that's exactly what I pay them for. I know when it comes back with a sticker I can tell someone that I have a CAC coin for sale and there are no concerns by the buyer that the coin is not up to the grade. I have yet to send back a CAC coin, I can't say that abot all slabed coins I have bought.

 

 

Wheats:

You are not making any sense here. CAC does look for problems with coins; a problem with a coin is a reason why that coin will not get a sticker. As an example – if CAC found that a gold coin was puttied – that would be catching a problem. The reason CAC does not verify a coin is because they found something that was wrong with the coin – thus catching a problem.

You did not understand what I said. By the time the coin is sent to CAC it has already been slabbed and graded. The problem should have been cought then. Cac will not sticker if it does not meet their specifications, but they will not tell you or me that the coin will not sticker or what the problem(and by problem, I mean why it will not sticker ie. not solid for the grade) is unless we own the coin and send it back in to CAC. By then it too late for you and me, we now own the problem.

Wheat

 

 

Wow I think you are missing the point. The reason CAC was formed was because there were so many problem and over graded coins certified by the TPG’s. Obviously the TPG’s were getting loose and sloppy and missing things. Thus the TPG’s missed issues with coins that would have either kept them out of a holder as well as coins that were over graded or very weak for the grade. Just because a coin does not get a CAC sticker does not mean there was a problem – it could be as simple as the coin being very weak for the grade. I have had many coin’s certified by CAC and a number rejected. They won’t send an explanation as to why your coin did not pass but I have called and spoke to JA about why some of my coins did not pass.

I might be mistaken, but I think that's what I said.

After spending my entire adult lifetime in law enforcement, I think I learned to realize that some conversations are like trying to teach a pig to whistle

you are just wasting your time and all you are going to do is make the pig mad.

[DirtyGoldMan]

I have two anecdotes re: gold stickers and one comment re: stickers in general.

 

Anecdote 1: In 2009, James bid on an 1884-CC $20 for me in a Scotsman auction. I had viewed the coin in hand and felt it was undergraded as a PCGS/OGH XF-45. It was an extremely attractive, lightly circulated coin, with perfect surfaces, lovely original color, and barely any visible wear. Why it was in a 45 holder, I cannot explain.

 

I won the coin, for AU money, and brought it to the Baltimore 2010 spring show with some of my favorite coins. Nearly everyone who pulled the coin from the box (which included coins that were significantly rarer, more dramatic, and more expensive), remarked on how terrific it was, and quite a few asked to buy it from my collection. Doug Winter graded it AU-55.

 

I sent the coin to the CAC, and it received a gold sticker. It was not exactly like winning the lottery because I paid AU money for the coin, but it was an excellent confirmation for what I, James, Doug Winter, and numerous others believed--the coin was obviously undergraded.

 

(I have similar stories, but since James is active on this thread, I offered this example.)

 

Anecdote 2: Late last year I purchased a Charlotte half eagle in PCGS OGH VF-25 CAC Gold for strong XF-45 money. Does that make me a schmuck for overpaying for a coin? Some may think so. The coin had spectacular original color, and I would have paid the same amount if the coin were raw. It's not the sticker that made the coin expensive; the coin was expensive any way you wrap it up (raw, NGC, PCGS, Secure Plus, Star, whatever).

 

Comment: I have learned more about the nuances of grading and detecting problem coins from submitting to the CAC than I have in reading these and the forums across the street for the last 10 years, from going to coin shows for the last ten years, from reading dozens of coin books, and from submitting to both TPGs, combined. As Mark said--the CAC is a bargain.

 

Finally, it has been my experience, and this is not limited to coin people, that those who are the most in need of expert help are the ones who think that they know everything already. Me, I am the guy that is always looking to learn more and get better.

[Mark T]

It is discouraging to me when I understand so many folks whose only concern is how much they will get "when it comes time to sell" (a phrase that I personally dislike). Why do individuals not understand that it might be great and wonderful to them to get huge money for their coins and horribly inflate market values, but in the long run, it deprives other true collectors from being able to afford to collect?

 

Supposedly, one of the factors that brought about the CAC was an interest in protecting great coins. I fervently believe that the best way to protect coins is to place them in the hands of true collectors, rather than speculators, slab brokers and meat markets.

 

But, manipulating markets with the only goal being to drive up the cost of better coins ultimately has the effect of diminishing the collector base, because fewer nice coins end up in permanent homes (i.e., in collections), being beyond reasonable financial means. We little guys want to purchase, treasure and protect nice coins, but are already to the point where we can't afford much of what's out there.

 

Driving up the price of the better coins simply diminishes the odds that they end up in the hands of respectful collectors. But I suppose that if your only concern is extracting every last dollar from the market "when it comes time to sell", then you probably don't care about other collectors.

 

I had never thought of it this way. With this said, isn't it fair to say that many CAC coins (i.e. premium quality pieces) were already receiving premiums when sold by owners in the know? For instance, even prior to CAC, I know of several collectors who would pay more than guide value for nice, original pieces with superb eye appeal.

The difference (at least for me) is that representative(s) of CAC acknowledge and state quite plainly that their goal is to select that part of the market for premium coins, and drive up the prices of those coins. Coincindentally, those are precisely the coins that need to end up in the hands of collectors. That is different than an organization whose goal is to drive up the value of an entire market.

 

James let’s be realistic here – we all want to maximize what we get for something when we sell it. However if you want to be really nice I will buy your collection at 10 % below wholesale

I have always defended CAC and will continue to do so – I think they have been a benefit to the hobby especially considering that so much is done sight unseen.

Mark, I always enjoy your posts . I am not suggesting that people should sell their coins at a loss. A profit is healthy for the market. What I don't comprehend, though, is the blatant disregard for common sense and decency as some people see a golden sticker, and blast out absurdly high bids on coins that, yes, are "nice", but hardly the holy grail(s) of the hobby. And I don't understand why seeing a green sticker makes so many people weak in the knees, or get dollar signs in their eyes.

 

I would love for everyone to be able to buy some coins, hold them for a few years as they enjoy the privilege of ownership, then resell them to other deserving collectors for reasonable profit. Personally though, I have basically no respect for those who want to grab onto as many coins as they can, ship them off to CAC for stickering, then hold out for every last possible penny of profit on their wares, caring little for whether or not that squeezes out the small collectors who have historically been the foundation of the hobby.

 

Mark, let's assume all of my coins are reasonably nice for the grade. If I ask for a fair 10% profit on the coins I sell you, would you accept that, stickered or not? And if I wish to buy one of your stickered coins at only a 10% profit to you, even though you suspect they might make 40% in an auction, is my offer good enough?

 

Or, do you demand that the market inflate your gains to the maximum possible level, and let us not care how that might affect the collector base?

 

 

James because I know you I would meet you in the middle at 20 %

 

 

 

 

[Arizonadesertrat]

"..Finally, it has been my experience, and this is not limited to coin people, that those who are the most in need of expert help are the ones who think that they know everything already. Me, I am the guy that is always looking to learn more and get better. "

 

I couldn't have said it better. Sage advice indeed.

[mintcollector]

The only thing that 'bothers me about CAC' is the assumption that the market may turn to ONLY accepting CAC coins. This is the true danger in this 'phenomenon' that we as collectors and investors may have helped create.

 

That being said CAC does serve a purpose. I just hope the collecting community understands that a 'non-CAC' certified coin is 'not worthless;' as opposed to 'worth less.' There is a major difference between these two terms that I see a lot of collectors ignoring when 'auction fever' hits.

 

This in my opinion could very well end up hurting the collecting hobby overall.

 

Just my opinion...

 

'mint'

[Walkerfan]

I like CAC and I think it is an extra value-adder but I would take an extra TPGS 'point' over a gold bean any day.

 

I also think that the longer CAC is around--- many more of the quality coins will have beans and it will not have as much of an impact......I still think it's a good thing and I don't feel that it threatens the market at all.

 

It certainly doesn't sway my decision to buy one way or the other but I KNOW that it affects some others.

[Oldtrader3]

IMHO, this falls back in the TPG's laps. If they miss putty and other problem coins which they are being paid to catch, the TPG's are not really performing at the level of their business plan commitment which I would consider satisfactory.

 

I ralize that any set of human eyes can not see a defect consistenly more than about 85%of the time. That is why the TPG's have Final Certifiers. The fact that PCGS had a run of over $1,000,000 in payouts a couple years ago due to improperly graded coins illustrates this issue better than any other performance metric that I can think of. I am not trying to be critical of TPG's just more worried about coin grading consistancy than anything else.

 

The TPG's need to tighten up and worry more about the financial impact that this has on their reputation and customers, than just focus on the bottom line of profit. CAC would go out of business if the TPG's did their job better.

[DirtyGoldMan]

" CAC would go out of business if the TPG's did their job better."

 

You are under the erroneous assumption that the business model of the CAC is to sticker coins. Period.

 

The actual business model, as John Albanese explained to me at the Milwaukee ANA, is to be a market-maker for CAC-stickered coins. He expected that the stickering activity should draw down over time.

[Arizonadesertrat]

"...The actual business model, as John Albanese explained to me at the Milwaukee ANA, is to be a market-maker for CAC-stickered coins. He expected that the stickering activity should draw down over time."

 

That is my understanding as well. JA made it clear from the beginning that stickering coins was not going to bring in a lot of revenue---the expected money-making side of CAC would come through the sight-unseen trading of CAC-stickered coins. His rationale for this was the observation that dealer-dealer trading on a sight-unseen basis was messed up because things had progressed to the point that too many low-end coins were trading this way (vs. trading on a sight-seen basis) and this was depressing prices for 'good' coins as well.

[wheat'swheats]

I have two anecdotes re: gold stickers and one comment re: stickers in general.

 

Anecdote 1: In 2009, James bid on an 1884-CC $20 for me in a Scotsman auction. I had viewed the coin in hand and felt it was undergraded as a PCGS/OGH XF-45. It was an extremely attractive, lightly circulated coin, with perfect surfaces, lovely original color, and barely any visible wear. Why it was in a 45 holder, I cannot explain.

 

I won the coin, for AU money, and brought it to the Baltimore 2010 spring show with some of my favorite coins. Nearly everyone who pulled the coin from the box (which included coins that were significantly rarer, more dramatic, and more expensive), remarked on how terrific it was, and quite a few asked to buy it from my collection. Doug Winter graded it AU-55.

 

I sent the coin to the CAC, and it received a gold sticker. It was not exactly like winning the lottery because I paid AU money for the coin, but it was an excellent confirmation for what I, James, Doug Winter, and numerous others believed--the coin was obviously undergraded.

 

(I have similar stories, but since James is active on this thread, I offered this example.)

 

Anecdote 2: Late last year I purchased a Charlotte half eagle in PCGS OGH VF-25 CAC Gold for strong XF-45 money. Does that make me a schmuck for overpaying for a coin? Some may think so. The coin had spectacular original color, and I would have paid the same amount if the coin were raw. It's not the sticker that made the coin expensive; the coin was expensive any way you wrap it up (raw, NGC, PCGS, Secure Plus, Star, whatever).

 

Comment: I have learned more about the nuances of grading and detecting problem coins from submitting to the CAC than I have in reading these and the forums across the street for the last 10 years, from going to coin shows for the last ten years, from reading dozens of coin books, and from submitting to both TPGs, combined. As Mark said--the CAC is a bargain.

 

Finally, it has been my experience, and this is not limited to coin people, that those who are the most in need of expert help are the ones who think that they know everything already. Me, I am the guy that is always looking to learn more and get better.

I have a simular story. I bought a 1914 s lincoln in an old anacs holder graded ms 64 rb,I did not care about it being in ANACS because the coin looked so nice, I sent the coin to NGC to put in a slab which I could use in my set. To my suprise and bewilderment NGS graded it a 63 bn. I was stunned, but still loved the coin. I sent the coin to CAC and it came back with a gold sticker which I think confirms my judgement of the coin, It is now in my set replaceing my other 14 s.

Wheat