CAC??? WHY BOTHER???

[copper toning]

I am sorry but I do not understand the purpose.

 

Why do we need an opinion to back up the tpg.

 

Also it seems to me that most collectors or investors who cac coins feel they are competent enough to grade there own coins yet still spend the funds on tpg/cac.

 

If you are sending coins to cac it almost has to be for investment purposes. No?

 

I send very few coins to be certified and I do not believe I will ever send one to be cac'd.

 

 

[Oldtrader3]

Take a close look at the sale premiums that CAC coins get in some classic series and whether you believe in the concept of CAC or not, the strong prices are real.

[mintcollector]

I am sorry but I do not understand the purpose.

 

Why do we need an opinion to back up the tpg.

 

Also it seems to me that most collectors or investors who cac coins feel they are competent enough to grade there own coins yet still spend the funds on tpg/cac.

 

If you are sending coins to cac it almost has to be for investment purposes. No?

 

I send very few coins to be certified and I do not believe I will ever send one to be cac'd.

 

 

Again, this is your opinion. That being said, in the world of 'gradeflation' and market grading vs. technical grading; I can tell you that there is a place CAC, in my opinion. It would also appear that judging by the amount of submissions they have already received, they are here to stay.

 

The point is, collect what you like, not what everyone else does.

 

Kind Regards,

 

'mint'

[WoodenJefferson]

Have you ever seen the auction prices for anything with a "gold" bean on it?

[Walkerfan]

Take a close look at the sale premiums that CAC coins get in some classic series and whether you believe in the concept of CAC or not, the strong prices are real.

 

This is so true and is why I would always be glad to have the green bean on any one of my slabs.

 

TPGS AND CAC are BOTH wrong at times (much more often than you know), so learn the series and buy what YOU like and, if it has a bean, well then, GREAT!! It's just an added equity builder.

 

Just don't put blind faith into TPGS OR CAC.

[BKW]

Take a close look at the sale premiums that CAC coins get in some classic series and whether you believe in the concept of CAC or not, the strong prices are real.

 

This is so true and is why I would always be glad to have the green bean on any one of my slabs.

 

TPGS AND CAC are BOTH wrong at times (much more often than you know), so learn the series and buy what YOU like and, if it has a bean, well then, GREAT!! It's just an added equity builder.

 

Just don't put blind faith into TPGS OR CAC.

 

Well said.

[BillJones]

The only time that I went out of my way to buy a CAC approved coin was when I was shopping for the Panama – Pacific fifty dollar gold slugs. I had read and heard so many stories about how these coins had been “improved” with “Bondo” and other types of putty that I wanted that added assurance to the grade. For other coins, having the “green bean” is nice, but it’s not going to stop me from buying a coin I like, and it’s not going to prompt me to pay a ridiculous premium.

[FishyOne]

I am sorry but I do not understand the purpose.

 

Why do we need an opinion to back up the tpg.

 

Also it seems to me that most collectors or investors who cac coins feel they are competent enough to grade there own coins yet still spend the funds on tpg/cac.

 

If you are sending coins to cac it almost has to be for investment purposes. No?

 

I send very few coins to be certified and I do not believe I will ever send one to be cac'd.

 

 

Your comment about investment purposes has merit. If I can get more money for my coins when it's time to sell? Yeah, I'll spend $10 with CAC. If it doesn't sticker? There is no charge.

 

CAC's main market is $1,000+ coins.

[James_OldeTowne]

I am sorry but I do not understand the purpose.

 

Why do we need an opinion to back up the tpg.

 

Also it seems to me that most collectors or investors who cac coins feel they are competent enough to grade there own coins yet still spend the funds on tpg/cac.

 

If you are sending coins to cac it almost has to be for investment purposes. No?

 

I send very few coins to be certified and I do not believe I will ever send one to be cac'd.

The CAC sticker may not help collectors, and isn't necessarily intended to. It is a market-maker tool, and is intended to help inflate prices within a narrow segment of the market. I personally have yet to pay a premium for a CAC-stickered coin, but would do so if the coin happened to meet my personal standards for what is desirable. In all likelihood, it would be a coin I'd be cracking out for my collection (as I have done on at least two occasions so far).

 

[MarkFeld]

For $10/coin, you get a (second) highly expert opinion.

 

And if CAC stickers the coin, there is the possibility of greater liquidity and/or a better price when you want to sell.

 

CAC sometimes catches problems that the major TPG's and owners/submitters of the coins miss. So, it can be educational, even for knowledgeable collectors and dealers.

 

All things considered, I think CAC's service is a bargain.

[coinman1794]

I am sorry but I do not understand the purpose.

 

Why do we need an opinion to back up the tpg.

 

Also it seems to me that most collectors or investors who cac coins feel they are competent enough to grade there own coins yet still spend the funds on tpg/cac.

 

If you are sending coins to cac it almost has to be for investment purposes. No?

 

I send very few coins to be certified and I do not believe I will ever send one to be cac'd.

 

 

Dealers who specialize is high-end coins are very happy to have a third party available to independently affirm their descriptions. There is a wide range of quality out there in PCGS and NGC slabs; and whatever premium people might pay, and the market might set, is secondary to CAC's usefulness as a tool for collectors trying to distinguish choice coins over the internet. In person can be another matter.

 

And it never hurts to have another professional opinion; as was said in another thread, even some slabbed coins have problems.

[Oldtrader3]

For $10/coin, you get a (second) highly expert opinion.

 

And if CAC stickers the coin, there is the possibility of greater liquidity and/or a better price when you want to sell.

 

CAC sometimes catches problems that the major TPG's and owners/submitters of the coins miss. So, it can be educational, even for knowledgeable collectors and dealers.

 

All things considered, I think CAC's service is a bargain.

 

I agree with Mark, especially with the "catches problems that the major TPG's and owners miss" part.

[wheat'swheats]

For $10/coin, you get a (second) highly expert opinion.

 

And if CAC stickers the coin, there is the possibility of greater liquidity and/or a better price when you want to sell.

 

CAC sometimes catches problems that the major TPG's and owners/submitters of the coins miss. So, it can be educational, even for knowledgeable collectors and dealers.

 

All things considered, I think CAC's service is a bargain.

 

I agree with Mark, especially with the "catches problems that the major TPG's and owners miss" part.

CAC does not catch the problems. They certify that there are no problems with the coin in the assigned grade. If there is a problem there is no sticker. I have had my feelings hurt on several occasions by the folks at CAC, but that's exactly what I pay them for. I know when it comes back with a sticker I can tell someone that I have a CAC coin for sale and there are no concerns by the buyer that the coin is not up to the grade. I have yet to send back a CAC coin, I can't say that abot all slabed coins I have bought.

[coinman_23885]

The only time that I went out of my way to buy a CAC approved coin was when I was shopping for the Panama – Pacific fifty dollar gold slugs. I had read and heard so many stories about how these coins had been “improved” with “Bondo” and other types of putty that I wanted that added assurance to the grade. For other coins, having the “green bean” is nice, but it’s not going to stop me from buying a coin I like, and it’s not going to prompt me to pay a ridiculous premium.

 

From my (primarily buyer's perspective), a CAC sticker is essentially a cheap insurance policy of sorts. My understanding is that CAC has a guarantee of its own and will buy back an improperly stickered coin (in addition to the TPG's own guarantee). Nevertheless, I agree that I wouldn't pay an exorbitant premium for a CAC verified coin, but a CAC verified coin will definitely garner more than a cursory glance from me.

 

With this said, I will still purchase non-CAC verified coins, but if the coin is particularly expensive, I will spend much more time looking for potential hidden flaws (i.e. if an expensive coin doesn't have a CAC sticker, I almost wonder if there is something wrong; nevertheless, I realize that some collectors are anti-CAC so there are several excellent coins that will never make it to New Jersey).

 

In short, I agree with the others that CAC is a bargain for the $10 or $20 fee (for more expensive coins) currently charged. I intend to gradually submit all of my collection.

[leeg]

CAC will give you an offer on a coin that bears it's sticker. I bought this example, and decided to sell it, they gave me what I paid for the coin.

 

 

 

I wish now I still had it.

[James_OldeTowne]

CAC will give you an offer on a coin that bears it's sticker. I bought this example, and decided to sell it, they gave me what I paid for the coin.

Lee, sorry but I don't quite understand. Do you mean you bought the coin, sent it to CAC, they stickered it, then they made you an offer? If so, I would have thought you should had been offered a strong premium over what you paid for it.

 

Or, do you mean you bought it already-stickered, then went about trying to sell it and only the CAC itself offered a premium?

[West August-migration]

I am sorry but I do not understand the purpose.

 

Liquidity. ymmv

[MJ]

Liquidity and some peace of mind. Especially in gold issues where puttying and lasering have been known to fool the pro's. CAC has a great niche here and gold pieces with stickers sell for a nice premium on generics and speciality pieces. Bill Jone's response cites a classic example. He has forgotten more about coins then most will ever know yet he feels more comfortable with a stickered Pac slug then one without. I would also..............MJ

[mommam17]

For $10 I got an expert's opinion of my coin if it's at least solid for the grade with a sticker and a verbal analysis of the coin if I want. I also find out if there's any PVC contamination on it. The coin is now worth more if it stickers. When CAC started there were many people against it but I believe most have now seen the benefits. I know the quality of my collection has improved since CAC started in October of 2007 at the first Coinfest Show in Old Greenwich, Connecticut.

[physics-fan3.14]

I honestly don't care about CAC at all. I've seen some really nice CAC coins, I've seen some really ugly CAC coins. Same with any graded coin. In fact, I recall recently seeing a CAC'd toned PL coin, and personally did not agree the toning was natural.

 

I will not avoid a CAC sticker if the coin has one already, but I won't pay a premium for it. I won't seek it out. And I have no plans to send any coins to them.

[Raisethis2]

I agree that the CAC is essentially a market making tool but I also think this of the + and the * TPG's now include on some submissions. I think it's a virtual guarantee that coin owners will point to the green beans and somehow convince themselves that because of it asking double is reasonable and fair.

 

Having a green bean on an MS 64 1881 S dollar makes zero sense to me. Having it on an 1806 quarter eagle in MS is a different story. If it's purpose is to assure the market that the coin is "solid" for the grade it makes infinitely more sense to do so on something that matters. When I start seeing them on modern MS 70 Proof coins struck last month, that's when I'll lose all interest in them.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

 

 

 

....... If it's purpose is to assure the market that the coin is "solid" for the grade it makes infinitely more sense to do so on something that matters. When I start seeing them on modern MS 70 Proof coins struck last month, that's when I'll lose all interest in them.

 

 

CAC doesn't review modern coins, so you wont be seeing that.

[leeg]

CAC will give you an offer on a coin that bears it's sticker. I bought this example, and decided to sell it, they gave me what I paid for the coin.

Lee, sorry but I don't quite understand. Do you mean you bought the coin, sent it to CAC, they stickered it, then they made you an offer? If so, I would have thought you should had been offered a strong premium over what you paid for it.

 

Or, do you mean you bought it already-stickered, then went about trying to sell it and only the CAC itself offered a premium?

James,

The coin was already stickered. I had paid a small premium for it and CAC was the first folks I thought to ask to see if they would buy it. I got my money back so it was all good to me.

[jom]

I agree that having another opinion is good. But I can get that by showing the coin around a bourse floor.

 

What I find interesting are two quotes from above:

 

Just don't put blind faith into TPGS OR CAC.

 

Yet I read.....

 

Have you ever seen the auction prices for anything with a "gold" bean on it?

 

It seems these statements, while both true, are a reflection of the often "do as I say, not as I do" mentality in the coin market. Obviously, I'm not criticizing the posters...what I'm saying is that coin collectors (or rather slab collectors) don't seem to heed the advice. Every new gimmick creates a new bubble for whatever label is being marketed. What next? A fifth party grading service?

 

I haven't seen anything that is particularly special about CAC'd coins either. I did, however, observe a Stack's auction (I think last summer) that had a number of Gold CAC stickers on older PCGS holders that were ALL (IMO) a joke. Some might have been good enough as Green Labels but this Gold sticker was over used in just about every instance. I got the impression they just stuck the sticker on the thing because it was a Rattler holder.

 

I'm with PhysicsFan on this one....I find it a good resource and I'm not going to put a huge premium on them. In fact, all these bells and whistles they've added recently (+, CAC, star) have made me MORE skeptical about grading and forced me to look more carefully at coins.

 

jom

[James_OldeTowne]

It is discouraging to me when I understand so many folks whose only concern is how much they will get "when it comes time to sell" (a phrase that I personally dislike). Why do individuals not understand that it might be great and wonderful to them to get huge money for their coins and horribly inflate market values, but in the long run, it deprives other true collectors from being able to afford to collect?

 

Supposedly, one of the factors that brought about the CAC was an interest in protecting great coins. I fervently believe that the best way to protect coins is to place them in the hands of true collectors, rather than speculators, slab brokers and meat markets.

 

But, manipulating markets with the only goal being to drive up the cost of better coins ultimately has the effect of diminishing the collector base, because fewer nice coins end up in permanent homes (i.e., in collections), being beyond reasonable financial means. We little guys want to purchase, treasure and protect nice coins, but are already to the point where we can't afford much of what's out there.

 

Driving up the price of the better coins simply diminishes the odds that they end up in the hands of respectful collectors. But I suppose that if your only concern is extracting every last dollar from the market "when it comes time to sell", then you probably don't care about other collectors.

[coinman_23885]

It is discouraging to me when I understand so many folks whose only concern is how much they will get "when it comes time to sell" (a phrase that I personally dislike). Why do individuals not understand that it might be great and wonderful to them to get huge money for their coins and horribly inflate market values, but in the long run, it deprives other true collectors from being able to afford to collect?

 

Supposedly, one of the factors that brought about the CAC was an interest in protecting great coins. I fervently believe that the best way to protect coins is to place them in the hands of true collectors, rather than speculators, slab brokers and meat markets.

 

But, manipulating markets with the only goal being to drive up the cost of better coins ultimately has the effect of diminishing the collector base, because fewer nice coins end up in permanent homes (i.e., in collections), being beyond reasonable financial means. We little guys want to purchase, treasure and protect nice coins, but are already to the point where we can't afford much of what's out there.

 

Driving up the price of the better coins simply diminishes the odds that they end up in the hands of respectful collectors. But I suppose that if your only concern is extracting every last dollar from the market "when it comes time to sell", then you probably don't care about other collectors.

 

I had never thought of it this way. With this said, isn't it fair to say that many CAC coins (i.e. premium quality pieces) were already receiving premiums when sold by owners in the know? For instance, even prior to CAC, I know of several collectors who would pay more than guide value for nice, original pieces with superb eye appeal.

[Walkerfan]

I just don't understand AT ALL. I can only speculate that there must be a TON on uneducated people out there with MONEY TO BURN. I see coins that are dipped out, marred & sofly struck (or all three) sell in the 5 figure range just because CAC and/or one of the TPGS say it's worth it! Don't these people have eyes??!! Can't they tell or don't they even care??!! I just don't get it. You would NEVER catch me wasting huge sums of money on junk coins just because a third or fourth party tells me to! Not all are like this, of course, but I have see too many that are.

[Arizonadesertrat]

James,

While I sympathize with the sentiment of your last post, I think that a few points are worth noting. CAC did not cause the problem you noted (although it is having a notable impact on pricing of some coins). I started collecting coins more than 45 years ago. Around 1970, investor funds began creeping into the coin market, and prices for some coins began moving up as a result. This accelerated when the big TPGs really got going. When pop reports revealed the true availabilities of some kinds of coins (especially what are deemed generics today), there was a negative response. When the last (current) recession hit, many collectors of modestly priced coins---i.e., for whom a $1,000 coin is a really big purchase---started sitting on the sidelines because of financial worries. Collectors (and investors) with discretionary money increasing thought nothing of throwing an extra 20+% for quality for a grade. PQ coins dried up in dealer inventories, as they tended to remain in strong hands. The market responded---real PQ coins that weren't generic issues started moving up in price even before the advent of CAC and plus grading.

[coinman1794]

For $10/coin, you get a (second) highly expert opinion.

 

And if CAC stickers the coin, there is the possibility of greater liquidity and/or a better price when you want to sell.

 

CAC sometimes catches problems that the major TPG's and owners/submitters of the coins miss. So, it can be educational, even for knowledgeable collectors and dealers.

 

All things considered, I think CAC's service is a bargain.

 

I agree with Mark, especially with the "catches problems that the major TPG's and owners miss" part.

CAC does not catch the problems. They certify that there are no problems with the coin in the assigned grade. If there is a problem there is no sticker. I have had my feelings hurt on several occasions by the folks at CAC, but that's exactly what I pay them for. I know when it comes back with a sticker I can tell someone that I have a CAC coin for sale and there are no concerns by the buyer that the coin is not up to the grade. I have yet to send back a CAC coin, I can't say that abot all slabed coins I have bought.

Yes, CAC choses not to sticker coins that do not meet their standards for quality and eye appeal, but when they detect a problem coin, they write a note to the submitter explaining that the coin has a problem, like PVC, altered surfaces, putty, etc. I've had several coins flagged by CAC and many others have too.

[coinman1794]

I honestly don't care about CAC at all. I've seen some really nice CAC coins, I've seen some really ugly CAC coins. Same with any graded coin. In fact, I recall recently seeing a CAC'd toned PL coin, and personally did not agree the toning was natural.

 

I will not avoid a CAC sticker if the coin has one already, but I won't pay a premium for it. I won't seek it out. And I have no plans to send any coins to them.

 

Jason, it's a catch-22 situation. Those of us who can recognize a great coin have no personal need for CAC stickers. But the craze for High-end, PQ, + (PLUS) designations, etc., looks like it is becoming a permanent part of the coin market. There are people looking only for CAC stickers and + signs now, just as people looked for PCGS or NGC slabs in the early days of certification, over raw coins. I've had dealers come to me who specialize in selling only the finest CAC graded coins, regardless of how many non-CAC coins were graded higher. CAC stickers do add great liquidity to slabbed coins; and while it is unfortunate, some coins can be hard to sell if they are not stickered.