BN vs RD on old coins

[Lastufka Collection]

So I recently learned that NGC's guarantee doesn't cover copper, bronze or copper-nickel coins for more than 10 years from original date of grading, as, I assume, they tend to change color over time.

 

So those one hundred year old Lincolns that carry huge premiums for their RD colors, may very well turn BN while in our collections.

 

With this information, would it make sense to skip the color premium and just buy high grade BN coins when I'm looking at 19th century and early 20th century copper and bronze coinage?

 

Or is it not as likely to turn in the holder as I am thinking it is?

 

I'm not sure what causes the color change. I live in the midwest, so even though my coins are properly stored in an air conditioned and heated facility, the humidity in the summer can get overwhelming sometimes. I'd assume humidity and temperature are the biggest factor for the color change.

 

Sorry for the n00b questions, but I'll never know if I never ask.

[coinman_23885]

Since the guarantee expiration starts from the date of encapsulation, you should be able to have the coin reholdered; this would allow you to theoretically renew the guarantee. Just a thought.

 

With regards to your collecting habits (i.e. whether you should buy brown coins over red coins), I don't think so. I personally don't find most brown coins very appealing at all (with some exceptions). If you are looking for a happy medium, try red-brown coins. I still wouldn't shy away from full red copper personally. If, however, you have had several coins turn on you, then I would reevaluate whether to collect copper coins at all.

 

Proper storage can help prevent the discoloration of copper coins.

 

[coinman_23885]

. I'd assume humidity and temperature are the biggest factor for the color change.

 

Yes. To prevent your copper coins from turning, I recommend storing them with a silicon desiccant to remove moisture, storing the coins in a climate controlled environment, and using intercept shield slab boxes/covers.

 

Edited to add: I have never had a copper coin turn on me yet.

[RWB]

Store them in a negative-pressure canister within a pure nitrogen atmosphere and zero water vapor. Do not look at them or attempt to take any pleasure in ownership except $$. Worry is your friend, and loss of $$ is your fear.

[brg5658]

I would say that if you are talking about Large Cents and older (1857 and before) then I think some of the high grade BN designated coins are far superior in eye appeal to their RB or "RD" counterparts. Just in the 1839-1857 series of Braided hair large cents, I'd say the most beautiful pieces I have seen are graded MS66BN or sometimes MS67BN. The RB and RD pieces are always either very blotchy or artificially red looking. This is just my opinion.

 

A piece I oogle over often is this one: http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/WCM/CoinView.aspx?PeopleSetCoinID=1062939

 

Most of the coins in Electric Peak Collections Large cent collection are BN designation, and they are stunners. The unbroken luster and even chocolatey brown are top notch in my book.

 

In addition, the "premium" you pay for "RB" and particularly "RD" old copper is outlandish. The BN surfaces are likely more stable, and if properly stored will stay beautiful chocolate colored forever!

 

-Brandon

[physics-fan3.14]

The best way to avoid having copper coins turn on you is to buy silver coins. I can honestly say that I've never had a copper coin go bad

[coinman_23885]

The best way to avoid having copper coins turn on you is to buy silver coins. I can honestly say that I've never had a copper coin go bad

 

I have only had one or two coins "turn" on me through the years, and interestingly, both were silver (one was a Morgan Dollar and I cannot remember what the other coin was).

 

Edited to add: I can attribute the problem to an improper dip before encapsulation for at least one piece; this was one of my mistakes from my early collecting days. I'm not exactly sure what happened with the second piece, but I don't believe that it was dipped.

[HCumberdale]

I tend to prefer BN or RB coins purely for aesthetic reasons. I've never had a coin turn on me and I live in FL and don't use silica gel at all. They are in a climate controlled area, but I would think FL humidity would have won by now if it was really that big of a factor.

[jerseycat10]

The best way to avoid having copper coins turn on you is to buy silver coins. I can honestly say that I've never had a copper coin go bad

 

Amen to that.

[robec1347]

I love BN copper. You never have to worry about it turning Red and it looks darn good in MS.

[James_OldeTowne]

would it make sense to skip the color premium and just buy high grade BN coins when I'm looking at 19th century and early 20th century copper and bronze coinage?

You'd better believe it would. Way too many so-called "RD" coins in slabs are "artificially red", so to speak. Sooner or later, they WILL change.

 

You don't have to buy "BN", though. Often, the premium for the "RB" designation is very reasonable by comparison to "BN", but very attractive compared to the often silly premiums for "RD". Be smart, be wise, and buy coins that have already turned a little bit and save a lot.

[BKW]

 

 

If you're going to buy an RD coin, look for one in an old holder. If the coin has been slabbed for say, 20 years, and it hasn't turned, it is likely original mint red and probably very stable.

[Arizonadesertrat]

"You'd better believe it would. Way too many so-called "RD" coins in slabs are "artificially red", so to speak. Sooner or later, they WILL change..."

 

Exactly. Four years ago, I bought a recently graded NGC-graded 1937 proof set, all coins 65. The Lincoln was full red, and spotless. It started turning (while stored in an intercept shield box in a safety deposit box that had a silica gel cannister too) about 7-9 months after I bought the set. I had dozens of RD and RB slabbed coppers in that intercept shield box. None of the other coins appeared to have changed coloration..

 

[JIM F.]

I've had a few PCGS RD Lincolns develop nasty dark brown spots. I'm in S. Cal so humidity should not be a factor and they were stored in a safe deposit box. I didn't realize there was a 10 year guarantee -- how does that exactly work?

 

 

[BKW]

I've had a few PCGS RD Lincolns develop nasty dark brown spots. I'm in S. Cal so humidity should not be a factor and they were stored in a safe deposit box. I didn't realize there was a 10 year guarantee -- how does that exactly work?

 

 

See this link to NGC's guarantee. Bullets 4 and 5 under "WARNING: THIS GUARANTEE IS LIMITED" reference copper/bronze.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/services/writtenguarantee.asp

 

PCGS' guarantee can be found here (about half way through they speak of copper coins):

 

http://www.pcgs.com/guarantee.html

[coinman_23885]

"You'd better believe it would. Way too many so-called "RD" coins in slabs are "artificially red", so to speak. Sooner or later, they WILL change..."

 

Exactly. Four years ago, I bought a recently graded NGC-graded 1937 proof set, all coins 65. The Lincoln was full red, and spotless. It started turning (while stored in an intercept shield box in a safety deposit box that had a silica gel cannister too) about 7-9 months after I bought the set. I had dozens of RD and RB slabbed coppers in that intercept shield box. None of the other coins appeared to have changed coloration..

 

This makes me think that the problem isn't with storage conditions per se, but the individual coin (i.e. I wonder if someone had chemically treated it).

[coinman_23885]

PCGS' guarantee can be found here (about half way through they speak of copper coins):

 

http://www.pcgs.com/guarantee.html

 

IMO, the PCGS copper guarantee is virtually worthless; no color guarantee (expiration of previous guarantee without significant warning).

[Conder101]

I live in the midwest, so even though my coins are properly stored in an air conditioned and heated facility, the humidity in the summer can get overwhelming sometimes. I'd assume humidity and temperature are the biggest factor for the color change.

Here in the midwest the vast majority of out elctricity is generated in coal fired power plants. Our air tends to be "high" in Sulfur Dioxide. In rural communities it can also be high in Hydrogen Sulfide. Air conditioning doesn't remove these gases.

 

Since the guarantee expiration starts from the date of encapsulation, you should be able to have the coin reholdered; this would allow you to theoretically renew the guarantee. Just a thought.

I would check with NGC about that. Their records will contain the original date of encapsulation and a reholder keeps the same number. In order to "renew" the guarantee you may have to do a regrade, and you might even have to crack and resubmit raw lest they carryover the original encapsulation date.

[coinman_23885]

Since the guarantee expiration starts from the date of encapsulation, you should be able to have the coin reholdered; this would allow you to theoretically renew the guarantee. Just a thought.

I would check with NGC about that. Their records will contain the original date of encapsulation and a reholder keeps the same number. In order to "renew" the guarantee you may have to do a regrade, and you might even have to crack and resubmit raw lest they carryover the original encapsulation date.

 

I did.

[Oldtrader3]

I usually buy RB copper coins instead of RD for that reason. I had serious issues with copper in a safe deposit box, here in rainy Washington state. The bank turned the HVAC off every weekend and many of my coins turned. I have had better luck in a heated safe. I also have had luck with older slabs where the coin color is stable.

[James_OldeTowne]

"You'd better believe it would. Way too many so-called "RD" coins in slabs are "artificially red", so to speak. Sooner or later, they WILL change..."

 

Exactly. Four years ago, I bought a recently graded NGC-graded 1937 proof set, all coins 65. The Lincoln was full red, and spotless. It started turning (while stored in an intercept shield box in a safety deposit box that had a silica gel cannister too) about 7-9 months after I bought the set. I had dozens of RD and RB slabbed coppers in that intercept shield box. None of the other coins appeared to have changed coloration..

This makes me think that the problem isn't with storage conditions per se, but the individual coin (i.e. I wonder if someone had chemically treated it).

(thumbs u

 

The number of treated copper coins certified as "RD" is astonishing. Some collectors actually believe that red (or mostly red) large cents somehow survived 200 years in quantity based on how many have achieved the "RD" designation in slabs, which is naive.

 

All I have to do is point to the infamous Norweb Hibernia Incident as an example of a coin that was designated "RD" by PCGS, when a better designation would have been "neon pink with purple highlights".

[coinman_23885]

"You'd better believe it would. Way too many so-called "RD" coins in slabs are "artificially red", so to speak. Sooner or later, they WILL change..."

 

Exactly. Four years ago, I bought a recently graded NGC-graded 1937 proof set, all coins 65. The Lincoln was full red, and spotless. It started turning (while stored in an intercept shield box in a safety deposit box that had a silica gel cannister too) about 7-9 months after I bought the set. I had dozens of RD and RB slabbed coppers in that intercept shield box. None of the other coins appeared to have changed coloration..

This makes me think that the problem isn't with storage conditions per se, but the individual coin (i.e. I wonder if someone had chemically treated it).

(thumbs u

 

The number of treated copper coins certified as "RD" is astonishing. Some collectors actually believe that red (or mostly red) large cents somehow survived 200 years in quantity based on how many have achieved the "RD" designation in slabs, which is naive.

 

All I have to do is point to the infamous Norweb Hibernia Incident as an example of a coin that was designated "RD" by PCGS, when a better designation would have been "neon pink with purple highlights".

 

I know exactly what you mean, and I have passed on red coins that look suspicious to me in the past. Based on your experience as a cataloger, what is your opinion concerning the ease at which these pieces are identified? Have you ever seen a convincing example (i.e. one that you believed to be full red and unmolested) to find out later that it turned on you, likely the result of a chemical treatment? I'm just curious. I know that you have seen much more copper than I have.