Question on Mint Coin & Die Sets

[jtryka]

I was browsing the mint catalog, and came across the state quarter coin and die set, and it stated in the description that "To prevent unauthorized reproduction of United States Mint coinage, the die's original striking surface images have been completely removed by the U.S. Mint to conform with security procedures governing circulation coin die disposition." Does this mean that the image is there but somehow marred, or has the image been completely removed? I was thinking of ordering a set for the Illinois quarter when it comes out, but if all it would be is a state quarter and a big hunk of metal in a nice box, then I might just pass. But if the image just has a line through it or something similar, then it would be interesting. Has anyone ordered one of these sets? The pictures on the mint site don't help either.

[keithdagen]

Older dies can sometimes be found on the market with the image defaced, usually with a big X cut into the die. The new dies are completely defaced, with the image of the coin sanded off, so that you get a hunk of metal.

[PQSeated]

I've seen some of the earlier dies sell on Ebay before. Those are a lot nicer, because they still have some of the image left. With the newer dies, you're just buying "a big hunk of metal."

[jtryka]

Well, to me at least, that's not worth $35! Maybe I'll try to find one of the older ones on the secondary market.

[PQSeated]

If you're interested in commemoratives. Here's a neat proof die. Link

[jtryka]

Found a 1995 olympic set for $679.95, must be the PCGS cert MS-69 silver dollar driving that one up!

[nwcs]

It isn't worth $35, the dies they are currently selling. Sure, it is a die but really it's now a worthless hunk of metal. The older dies with the Xs on them really shouldn't have been released. From what I understand, they were also supposed to be sanded down. But perhaps they were more open to interpretation back then. I saw one die for a double eagle on ebay with the X and it was spectacular looking. Even if I could find a way to strike, I wouldn't mind striking with a big x on it.

[DWLange]

During the years of the first Philadelphia Mint (1793-1833) old dies were sold as scrap metal without defacing of any kind. A number of these survive, mostly in the collection of the ANS, but they are badly rusted. Restrikes and fantasy mulings were made during the mid 19th Century, and some of these dies were then cancelled with an X. A few later dies, particularly those of the Carson City Mint, still trade under the table, since they are illegal to own. These typically are in better condition, though they are usually cancelled.

 

The dies used by the San Francisco Mint to strike 1968-S proof coins were defaced with a blowtorch and then sold to a local recycler as scrap. Quite a number of these were retrieved and sold openly to collectors during the 1970s. I bought a quarter dollar reverse die which, along with an actual proof quarter, was mounted on a wooden plaque with a metal plate describing the history of the dies and confirming that they were legal to own. I bought this from New England Rare Coin Gallery (a predecessor of Heritage) for $39.95. Though mostly effaced, enough of the design remains visible to confirm what it is.

 

The Mint itself sold dies from the 1995-96 Olympics commmemorative program, and these were simply cancelled with an X. When it was pointed out to the authorities by error coin dealers that enough of the design remained in each quadrant to create fake off-center coins and other errors, the sale of undefaced dies was ended. That's why the current offering of dies features ones that are fully defaced, though their serial numbers remain visible on the shanks.

 

In addition to the Mint's offering of defaced dies, I've known of dealers having dozens of these for sale representing all current denominations. Only a few of these revealed any portion of the design, and those with some detail visible brought premiums over the generally modest price of such offerings.

[cladking]

It is rumored that some of the 1968 proof dies have no damage to them. I've seen some which were defaced with a grinding wheel and pictures of nickel die with minimal damage.

[nwcs]

Very interesting! I have a question, though. Wasn't the government concerned in the early days about counterfeits made with real dies sold for scrap metal? Considering that the Constitution took the power of minting from the states and gave it to the federal government, it would seem that the new govt was very conscious and protective of its right to coin metal. I'm surprised they would not take efforts to prevent unauthorized uses. Do you know why they weren't concerned at that time?

 

Neil

[CarlWohlforth]

Thanks for the great history Dave!

 

I've got two of the ones with no design at all. They are sort of interesting (I can use it to help show how coins are minted) but I wouldn't buy more than one without any design visible.

[nucks]

$35.00 is a bit steep for me just to own a completely defaced die,now if they would leave at least just one letter on it I'd jump all over it.

[BillJones]

I sold a number of 1968-S Proof coin dies and collars a couple of years ago. All of them had some details left on them, including af few with readable dates and mint marks. I've attached the top of a nickel die that I saved for myself.

 

I also have a plaque with a dime die that was totally effaced. I think that New England Rare Coin Galleries sold these back in the 1970s. They sell around here for about $20.