proper etiquette re: dealer coin prices

[Lastufka Collection]

Let's say a dealer has a fantastic coin, but it's overpriced by at least 200%.

 

Let's say you do your due diligence by gathering relevant, recent auction prices, and make a reasonable offer while including your research to back up your offer price. Let's say the dealer accepts your offer, which is for less than half their original asking price (but still in line with the recent auction prices).

 

Do I get excited and publicly praise the dealer for being reasonable and realizing his asking price was too high? Therefor shining a positive spotlight on the dealer and his shop. Or do I keep it a secret as not to embarrass the dealer with their extremely overvalued original price?

 

I'd like to of course form a long term relationship with this dealer, and others, so I don't want to break any etiquette rules. I'm just super psyched about this hypothetical new purchase. =)

[mintcollector]

Why don't you just thank the dealer, public or otherwise; with no mention of price in your comment? You could focus on the spectacular service he or she gave you instead. This has always worked for me.

 

Sincerely,

 

'mint'

[PerryHall]

Let's say a dealer has a fantastic coin, but it's overpriced by at least 200%.

 

Let's say you do your due diligence by gathering relevant, recent auction prices, and make a reasonable offer while including your research to back up your offer price. Let's say the dealer accepts your offer, which is for less than half their original asking price (but still in line with the recent auction prices).

 

Do I get excited and publicly praise the dealer for being reasonable and realizing his asking price was too high? Therefor shining a positive spotlight on the dealer and his shop. Or do I keep it a secret as not to embarrass the dealer with their extremely overvalued original price?

 

I'd like to of course form a long term relationship with this dealer, and others, so I don't want to break any etiquette rules. I'm just super psyched about this hypothetical new purchase. =)

 

Sounds like this dealer was fishing for a sucker and when he couldn't find one, he came down to a more realistic price. Sounds like he is unethical.

[cpm9ball]

Let's see if I understand you correctly using this hypothetical.......

 

A dealer has a coin worth $200 marked up 200% to $600. You offer him about 50% less or $300. Assuming that the dealer acquired the coin for, say $160, he has made a profit of about $140 or 87.5%.

 

Did you happen to notice if the dealer's other coins were routinely overpriced?

 

I don't know if I'd be jumping for joy or not.

 

Chris

[Lastufka Collection]

Chris, I meant marked up 100%, my math is fuzzy before 6am. Using your numbers, the coin worth $200 was for sale at $400. I emailed and offered $175 and it was accepted, with $175 being the average auction price for the very few instances over the last two years I could find. NGC doesn't have a value listed for this specific coin, so I use the term "worth" loosely here, as I only have completed auctions on heritage to go by.

[James_OldeTowne]

Sounds like this dealer was fishing for a sucker and when he couldn't find one, he came down to a more realistic price. Sounds like he is unethical.

Why?? Since when in America is it unethical to ask for top dollar, or even moon money, for something?

 

I see nothing wrong here at all with either the dealer's actions or the seller's. An item was offered for sale at a price, a counteroffer was made, then accepted, and both parties left happy.

 

Where in the world does "ethics" come into play here?

 

I have never walked into a car dealership and paid the exorbitant price requested on the first car I see. There always seems to be plenty of discount available once the negotiation process starts.

[cpm9ball]

Chris, I meant marked up 100%, my math is fuzzy before 6am. Using your numbers, the coin worth $200 was for sale at $400. I emailed and offered $175 and it was accepted, with $175 being the average auction price for the very few instances over the last two years I could find. NGC doesn't have a value listed for this specific coin, so I use the term "worth" loosely here, as I only have completed auctions on heritage to go by.

 

That sounds more reasonable, but I'm still curious to know if he routinely marks up all of his coins like that.

 

By the way, when you searched NGC, did you just use Numismedia or did you use the new "Coin Explorer" function? I understand that with Explorer, you can search all auction results at the same time. Just curious!

 

Chris

[Lastufka Collection]

Chris, the Explorer doesn't show any completed auctions for this coin. But I was able to find a few with manual searches.

[bsshog40]

I don't think it's uncommon for dealers, coin shops, coin sellers in flea markets, etc... to mark prices up. I would think they are hopeing that someone would just pay the shown price but also I'm sure they have it priced to bargain with also. They know what they paid and are just looking to make some sort of profit for thier time with the coin. I know there are some that just prey on suckers to come around, but there are probably more sellers that are willing to accept a decent offer. With your change in percentage markup, I think you got the coin at your price and the dealer got the money he needed to compensate him. For him coming down on the price, this only interprets to me that he knew the going value for the coin and no need for you to make him aware of your findings.

[KeeNoooo]

That happened to me on eBay. NGC coin explorer showed an 1883-S Morgan dollar at AU55, FMV was $180. Guy on eBay had it at $280. Average price I saw was anywhere from like $160-180. This was a very nice 55 so I offered 180. They accepted. Alot of this guys coins were overpriced with the option to submit a best offer. I think it has do with your normal, mark it up high, hope someone pays it. If not, accept any normal offer. I have done it myself on eBay. I am not a dealer though. I have done it trying to sell off old stuff.

[MarkFeld]

While there might be extremely rare mitigating circumstances, personally, I don't want to do business with a dealer (or collector) who is willing to sell a coin for less than half of his initial quote.

[Kenneth F]

I see this practice everywhere. As stated above, most will try to get the biggest profit possible. Whats good is that this dealer didnt stick to that high price. Ive had some dealings with folks on Ebay that will stick to their guns.. wanting $6000 for a $2000 coin because of a CAC sticker.. ha ha ha

 

A buyer armed with knowledge is an effective buyer.

[KeeNoooo]

Usually in my situation I am not trying to mark it for double or more. Then sell it for half of my quote. I will usually mark it up a little bit hoping to make a profit but will go only low enough to break even. I do not sell coins for a living mark.

[Kenneth F]

I guess it depends on how successful the dealer is. My old dealer used to sell me coins well under grey sheets. I have only bought a few items over FMV (over a 10 year period). Some smaller dealers will always push for a higher profit so they can make their ends meet. But when its double or triple the value, thats just nuts.

[messydesk]

While the coin in question could be an isolated instance of something that was just priced way too high, if I see a case full of coins with such price tags on them, I typically move on. The "half price bin" gimmick is really only somewhat appropriate for stuff under $10.

 

 

[DirtyGoldMan]

While the coin in question could be an isolated instance of something that was just priced way too high, if I see a case full of coins with such price tags on them, I typically move on.

 

That is my strategy. If we are that far apart, I generally do not bother.

[DirtyGoldMan]

Sounds like this dealer was fishing for a sucker and when he couldn't find one, he came down to a more realistic price. Sounds like he is unethical.

Why?? Since when in America is it unethical to ask for top dollar, or even moon money, for something?

 

I see nothing wrong here at all with either the dealer's actions or the seller's. An item was offered for sale at a price, a counteroffer was made, then accepted, and both parties left happy.

 

Where in the world does "ethics" come into play here?

 

I have never walked into a car dealership and paid the exorbitant price requested on the first car I see. There always seems to be plenty of discount available once the negotiation process starts.

 

"Ethics" is the wrong word choice. I would sub "business practice."

 

While in some instances, offering 45 cents on the dollar of what the dealer is asking, as in the OP's example, the deal may work out. In many other instances, the offer will prompt hard feelings, perhaps even some insults, and ensuing drama. Generally, I only want to see drama on coin forums, not surrounding my coin acquisitions.

 

[Crohnos01]

I have a dealer locally to me that has kind of the same approach it seems. Armed with Coin World values and a current issue of Red Book, it seems his strategy is to be "buy low, sell high". Not a bad gig if you can get away with it I guess.... His prices were in some cases twice what were shown in the red book and I had a proof ASE which should according tot he book be worth $80 and he offered me $40....

 

I think it has a negative effect on new collectors such as myself who would love to come in, browse, chat, and purchase one or two coins on a regular basis to build their collection... Instead, I find myself rather uncomfortable in the store and hastening my retreat.... which is by the way, why I found a different dealer to shop with.

[Kenneth F]

AAAAHHHHH.. the Red Book dealer. My friend has a coin shop back where I used to live and everytime I would ask a price on something, he would whip out the Red Book and I would laugh. That book is out of date by the time it hits the shelf.

[Dcoin]

Back to your original question...Would you tell someone?

 

Well if I considered the person a friend then sure I would. My brother needed a ASE in a hurry so he went to the local BM. I knew the guy was going to ask him for a moon money, so I told him to bring in a Buy it Now print out with the FMV of the same coin on ebay. Then play dumb.

 

Sure enough, the price went from 80$ to 50$ in no time at all and a win win.

[FishyOne]

While there might be extremely rare mitigating circumstances, personally, I don't want to do business with a dealer (or collector) who is willing to sell a coin for less than half of his initial quote.

 

This is similar to my sentiment here. If a dealer is asking double what a coin is worth (assuming 3 or 4 figure transactions), I would probably not even make an offer.

 

i.e. If I see a $300 coin with a $600 asking price? I move on and this happens quite often. I "browse" online almost daily and when a coin like OP describes comes up, I don't bother to make an offer.

 

Maybe I should??? .

[bsshog40]

If I see a "best offer" sign, I have no problem offering what I would give. I've never been afraid of the word NO.

[BillJones]

While there might be extremely rare mitigating circumstances, personally, I don't want to do business with a dealer (or collector) who is willing to sell a coin for less than half of his initial quote.

 

Yes, I agree. Most the time such dealers are looking to skin somebody who does not know any better. The one exception would be if the dealer is selling something about which he knows nothing. Then if it's an isolated situation it would be okay.

 

BUT if he has a case full of similar material with similar pricing, I'd say that he is less than ethical.

[shirohniichan]

While there might be extremely rare mitigating circumstances, personally, I don't want to do business with a dealer (or collector) who is willing to sell a coin for less than half of his initial quote.

 

Yea, verily.

 

I don't even look at a certain dealer's cases any more once I saw things listed at 3 times market value.

 

I can understand a novice or non-collector asking $100 for a "rare" silver dollar he inherited that turned out to be a common date worth only melt value. I do not give such a lenient view to a dealer. If I see common date, cleaned trade dollars for $795 sitting in a case, I know it is time to move on. No, I don't even check for scarce varieties.

[PerryHall]

Sounds like this dealer was fishing for a sucker and when he couldn't find one, he came down to a more realistic price. Sounds like he is unethical.

Why?? Since when in America is it unethical to ask for top dollar, or even moon money, for something?

 

I see nothing wrong here at all with either the dealer's actions or the seller's. An item was offered for sale at a price, a counteroffer was made, then accepted, and both parties left happy.

 

Where in the world does "ethics" come into play here?

 

I have never walked into a car dealership and paid the exorbitant price requested on the first car I see. There always seems to be plenty of discount available once the negotiation process starts.

 

I didn't say it was illegal---I said it was unethical. Do you really think it's ethical to price coins for more than double what they are worth in the hopes of gouging one of your customers? I understand why dealers price their coins higher that what they will take to give themselves some negotiating room but come on--- more than double what they are worth is excessive.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Do you really think it's ethical to price coins for more than double what they are worth in the hopes of gouging one of your customers? I understand why dealers price their coins higher that what they will take to give themselves some negotiating room but come on--- more than double what they are worth is excessive.

"Ethics" has NOTHING to do with a starting price on something. Sanity? maybe. Intelligence? maybe. But if someone offers a 1953-D wheat cent in VG for $.20... which is about TEN times it's value... what role does "ethics" play in that?

 

You seem to mistake the difference between asking a certain price, versus stating that something is worth a certain price. There is a difference, and that difference is where "ethics" is involved.

 

I can tell you that my price is $150 for my 1881-S Morgan dollar in MS-63. That is not unethical at all since there is no coercion, and you can very easily counteroffer. Rather, it is statement of fact: "my price is $150".

 

But if I trick you and tell you that an 1881-S in MS-63 has a market value of $150, then that might be "unethical". That is a statement of opinion stated as a fact: "these coins are worth $150".

[cpm9ball]

There will never be a shortage of bidiots.

 

James, that 81-S in MS63 is only worth $20 to me.

 

Chris

[MarkFeld]

Do you really think it's ethical to price coins for more than double what they are worth in the hopes of gouging one of your customers? I understand why dealers price their coins higher that what they will take to give themselves some negotiating room but come on--- more than double what they are worth is excessive.

"Ethics" has NOTHING to do with a starting price on something. Sanity? maybe. Intelligence? maybe. But if someone offers a 1953-D wheat cent in VG for $.20... which is about TEN times it's value... what role does "ethics" play in that?

 

You seem to mistake the difference between asking a certain price, versus stating that something is worth a certain price. There is a difference, and that difference is where "ethics" is involved.

 

I can tell you that my price is $150 for my 1881-S Morgan dollar in MS-63. That is not unethical at all since there is no coercion, and you can very easily counteroffer. Rather, it is statement of fact: "my price is $150".

 

But if I trick you and tell you that an 1881-S in MS-63 has a market value of $150, then that might be "unethical". That is a statement of opinion stated as a fact: "these coins are worth $150".

 

James, I mostly agree with your post. However, depending upon the reputation of the seller and the knowledge or lack thereof on the part of the buyer, sometimes a price quoted by the seller is construed as a representation that the coin IS of that value. For example, I know of some sellers with great reputations, but who gouge their clients. At the same time, I see comments about the sellers such as "He will never steer you wrong".

[Kenneth F]

Yea.. you can be like the clowns on TV.. they ALWAYS say, "this coin is worth (_________) in the leading numismatic catalog".

 

What leading numismatic catalog? ha ha ha...

[James_OldeTowne]

Do you really think it's ethical to price coins for more than double what they are worth in the hopes of gouging one of your customers? I understand why dealers price their coins higher that what they will take to give themselves some negotiating room but come on--- more than double what they are worth is excessive.

"Ethics" has NOTHING to do with a starting price on something. Sanity? maybe. Intelligence? maybe. But if someone offers a 1953-D wheat cent in VG for $.20... which is about TEN times it's value... what role does "ethics" play in that?

 

You seem to mistake the difference between asking a certain price, versus stating that something is worth a certain price. There is a difference, and that difference is where "ethics" is involved.

 

I can tell you that my price is $150 for my 1881-S Morgan dollar in MS-63. That is not unethical at all since there is no coercion, and you can very easily counteroffer. Rather, it is statement of fact: "my price is $150".

 

But if I trick you and tell you that an 1881-S in MS-63 has a market value of $150, then that might be "unethical". That is a statement of opinion stated as a fact: "these coins are worth $150".

 

James, I mostly agree with your post. However, depending upon the reputation of the seller and the knowledge or lack thereof on the part of the buyer, sometimes a price quoted by the seller is construed as a representation that the coin IS of that value. For example, I know of some sellers with great reputations, but who gouge their clients. At the same time, I see comments about the sellers such as "He will never steer you wrong".

Mark, as usual, you and I are on the same page, but may not agree exactly on the punctuation ! As you point out, there certainly are fringe areas of uncertainty with regard to "ethics", especially in circumstances where a potential buyer can't (or won't bother to) verify whether an asking price is realistic.