Fake PCGS slab and 1916 D Mercury Dime

[Bruceswar]

Right now I am a loss for words. I will just post these images and let you all comment away. I will be contacting PCGS ASAP. I do not want to reveal all the details yet as to how I came into this coin as I want to talk with PCGS first. Please note this is not bashing PCGS at all.

 

[dimefreak]

Those are die polish lines.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im of course just kidding!

[Bruceswar]

Those are die polish lines.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im of course just kidding!

 

I wish this were a real slab and coin. I will refrain from posting a lot of Bleeps right now!

[Walkerfan]

The messed up part is that it is in PCGS' cert. verification database, which means that the cert. verification service is pretty much useless.

[Bruceswar]

The real coin is up for auction right now at Heritage.

 

Here is the link...

 

Real Coin

[Walkerfan]

Thanks, for bringing this to the light of the surface, Bruce.

 

I am also speechless, at the moment, but will be very interested in what others have to say.

 

I will wait for them to respond before chiming in any further.

[e1cnr]

here is a link to sale a couple years ago past Heritage sale

 

the reverse has some die polish lines - obverse seems scratched

 

quite a few $5 - $10 K coins are showing up in PCGS

and are sandwiched coins

 

and being sold for cash on Craigs List around the country

[x2rider]

That's a shame

I Hope no money was lost on this transaction

[Bruceswar]

There are quite a few things wrong with this slab. The plastic color is wrong, the font is wrong. The ® symbol is not right either. The back label does not look 100% right either. The plastic is also not hard enough. The inside gasket is off also. Just blah!!

[brg5658]

The bar code gives away the fake very quickly. PCGS uses a "interleaved 2 of 5" barcoding system (ITF), and thus there are only two distinct widths (fat and thin) for the printed black bars and the white spaces between them. A real PCGS label is very exact in this matter, but many counterfeit slabs are sloppy with the barcoding.

 

In the picture below, notice that all of the thin printed black bars are exactly the same thickness throughout the barcode, and they are also the same thickness as the thin spaces between bars in the GENUINE bar code. The thick printed bars are also consistently the same thickness throughout the barcode, and they are also the same thickness as the thick spaces between bars.

 

BUT, in the COUNTERFEIT barcode, notice that there are several slightly inconsistent "thin" spaces (some thin spaces are much thinner than other thin spaces). Likewise, some of the "thick" spaces are thicker than others. I tried to note where two of the thin spaces were clearly different "widths" with the two little red lines below the label.

 

In addition, the font is also wrong on the counterfeit slab. BUT, the font can be harder to tell because there is an older generation of the PCGS slab that had a slightly squatter font and was a bit bolder.

 

 

 

 

 

[tejas1836]

brg5658,

This holder would have fooled me. Now that you've posted it next to the genuine holder, I can see a distinct difference in the dash in 1916-D and the "/" in the certification number.

[Bruceswar]

brg5658,

This holder would have fooled me. Now that you've posted it next to the genuine holder, I can see a distinct difference in the dash in 1916-D and the "/" in the certification number.

 

This holder would have fooled a bunch of people. You are not alone.

[brg5658]

brg5658,

This holder would have fooled me. Now that you've posted it next to the genuine holder, I can see a distinct difference in the dash in 1916-D and the "/" in the certification number.

 

This holder would have fooled a bunch of people. You are not alone.

 

I'm am by no means saying it is easy to tell fakes from genuine holders. BUT, I will say that PCGS does not create labels on genuine holders with imprecise barcodes. ALL of the narrow lines and narrow gaps should be of equal width. ALL of the wide lines and wide gaps should be of equal width.

 

If sufficiently high quality photos of a coin's holder are available, I have found the barcode to be the best indicator of genuine coins. If there is any funny business going on with spacing, then I stay away from the coin. Again, this isn't a 100% fix, but without having the coin in hand, it's the thing that sticks out for me. The article below on barcodes may be interesting to some.

 

ITF Barcode description (Wikipedia)

[coinman_23885]

In addition to the obvious surface issues, the mint mark doesn't look correct for this date (at least not to me).

[jom]

In addition to the obvious surface issues, the mint mark doesn't look correct for this date (at least not to me).

 

I think this is what is MOST important..by far. The center of the "D" isn't right. Isn't it supposed to be triangle shaped or some such.

 

Whatever the case, the best way to tell whether the slab is phoney is to LOOK at the coins first. Faking slabs is one thing but when they start making fake coins so well you can't detect we are in a lot of trouble.

 

jom

[coinman_23885]

Here is a close-up of the Denver mint mark on a legitimate 1916-D dime. Notice the serifs on the "D" and the overall shape of the mint mark. The coin in the original post does not look like this to me.

 

EDITED TO ADD: The mint mark looks like that commonly used on later date pieces to me. My guess is that the reverse of the coin is from a later date dime.

[e1cnr]

I hate to say it, but too many people have become reliant on what the slab says - like it is gospel

 

even citing, well the TPG guarantees the grade

 

 

if you can not grade a coin yourself (or see problems), you should not be spending big bucks on a coin

 

the PCGS cert look-up has a link to the Heritage sale, although when buying coins frequently there is not access to a computer internet connection

 

with the excellent archives at Heritage and Teletrade and other big auctionhouses, getting a correct cert number is no difficult task - making a fake coin look like the one pictured is.

 

Hopefully, you have a trail of where this coin/slab came from and can return it for a refund-

 

PCGS has gone after a couple coin dealers in MN that were selling fakes from magazine advertisements

 

 

good luck and hopefully all ends well as usually there is no Santa Claus in numismatics

[Lazarus Long]

The coin itself in the fake slab looks absolutely horrible though. It's obviosly not a VF dime

[CoinPulsive PCM]

I grabbed one of my PCGS holders out of my safe and the slab you have is no where near legit.

One major difference is the PCGS ® stampped in the bottom right corner. A real PCGS slab doesnt have the lines going thru the G. and the "r" trademark on this one is wayyyy off from mine.

What I suggest is call PCGS and let them know someone is producing counterfeit slabs and coins. It obviously is not their fault, but make them aware of what you have.

I cant believe that Heritage Auctions has it listed!! someone should call them and try to have them remove that listing.

 

[Conder101]

What I suggest is call PCGS and let them know someone is producing counterfeit slabs and coins.

They know. There have been fake PCGS slabs floating around since early 2008.

 

Two of you have mentioned the registered symbol, but that hologram is so badly scratched up around that area I don't see how you can tell anything about it.

[brg5658]

I cant believe that Heritage Auctions has it listed!! someone should call them and try to have them remove that listing.

 

The one listed on Heritage is the real one. The one listed by the original poster here is the fake. Not much point in calling Heritage to let them know they have the genuine version of a PCGS holder and coin.

[PerryHall]

What I suggest is call PCGS and let them know someone is producing counterfeit slabs and coins.

They know. There have been fake PCGS slabs floating around since early 2008.

 

Two of you have mentioned the registered symbol, but that hologram is so badly scratched up around that area I don't see how you can tell anything about it.

 

The rattler slab was faked in the 1980's while this style was still being used by PCGS. The counterfeiter put real coins in these slabs with a higher grade on the label---for example, putting an AU58 coin with a MS64 label. The coins were mostly Morgans and Saints. Of course, he was discovered when these coins went back to PCGS for a grade review and it was discoved the lettering on the label didn't exactly match the real labels. It wasn't too difficult to trace these fake slabs back to their origin. He was caught, prosecuted, and did some jail time. As a result, PCGS changed their slab design to make it more difficult to counterfeit including the addition of a hologram on the reverse.

 

 

[CoinPulsive PCM]

I cant believe that Heritage Auctions has it listed!! someone should call them and try to have them remove that listing.

 

The one listed on Heritage is the real one. The one listed by the original poster here is the fake. Not much point in calling Heritage to let them know they have the genuine version of a PCGS holder and coin.

 

Oh okay, my mistake. I thought the original poster was saying the coin in that auction was fake.

 

And wow, I didnt know the fake slabs have been around since the 80's. I'll have to look more closely at the slabs before buying on Ebay or anywhere.

What are some of the things to look for to identify a counterfeit slab??

[Conder101]

I didn't mention the 1989 fake rattlers since they are well known and haven't been made for over twenty years. They are rare and collectible in their own right and are probably wourth more than the same coin in a genuine slab.

 

The slab in the OP are still in production (in fact this is the second generation of the recent fakes) and have been since 2009. The first generation from 2008 are easier to spot due to flaws where the joint between the shells at the sides showing clearly. There are several methods that work well on the first generation ifyou have them in hand but they don't show on photos. Other than the label differences discussed here I don't know if there are physical differences in the shells themselves as I have not been able to get my hands on any of the second generation fakes.

[PerryHall]

I didn't mention the 1989 fake rattlers since they are well known and haven't been made for over twenty years.

 

I mentioned them for the newer collectors and to make the point that counterfeit slabs are nothing new. Also, I imagine more than a few of these fake rattler slabs are still in the market place.

[J3_Dog]

Hi All,

I just wanted to say that this site is amazing. I joined NGC in 2009 so that I could send in some coins I had. I have been collecting (mostly through the Mint) starting in 2005. I recieved the 5 coin discount and sent in 5 coins. I then let my subscription expire. I recently rejoined when the 5 Oz coins came out. I think I have sent in 7 of those so far for grading. Now... I have sent in my (5 Sets) of 2011 25th Anniv coins....

Anyway, I had known about NGC's Information Page for Member's, but just did not pay much attention to it until just a few weeks ago. I am learning and reading about so much information on here. Let me just say, Thanks to all who post such Great Information. Also, too NGC for doing such a good job with my coins. I commend everyone from shipping, recieving, grading and QA for a Great Job Well Done.

For the Hosts here and the many Members, Thank You Also.

I hope everyone had a nice Christmas and wish everyone a Happy New Year

 

Sincerely........ Jim

[e1cnr]

Right now I am a loss for words. I will just post these images and let you all comment away. I will be contacting PCGS ASAP. I do not want to reveal all the details yet as to how I came into this coin as I want to talk with PCGS first. Please note this is not bashing PCGS at all.

 

any updates?

 

 

ps, no instabans for life here for bashing PCGS

[Bruceswar]

Right now I am a loss for words. I will just post these images and let you all comment away. I will be contacting PCGS ASAP. I do not want to reveal all the details yet as to how I came into this coin as I want to talk with PCGS first. Please note this is not bashing PCGS at all.

 

any updates?

 

 

ps, no instabans for life here for bashing PCGS

 

 

I guess I should update this.

 

 

I was at the fun show. I went to the PCGS booth pretty quickly. PCGS took the coin back with them. They were very nice and helpful. I got the coin back with a letter from PCGS telling me it was fake. The holder was scratched as "Bad Holder" "Void". I then traded back with the guy we got it from. He is going to swallow the loss. Lucky for him he was not in it for much. All ends well. Coin is now off the market.

[MarkFeld]

Right now I am a loss for words. I will just post these images and let you all comment away. I will be contacting PCGS ASAP. I do not want to reveal all the details yet as to how I came into this coin as I want to talk with PCGS first. Please note this is not bashing PCGS at all.

 

any updates?

 

 

ps, no instabans for life here for bashing PCGS

 

 

I guess I should update this.

 

 

I was at the fun show. I went to the PCGS booth pretty quickly. PCGS took the coin back with them. They were very nice and helpful. I got the coin back with a letter from PCGS telling me it was fake. The holder was scratched as "Bad Holder" "Void". I then traded back with the guy we got it from. He is going to swallow the loss. Lucky for him he was not in it for much. All ends well. Coin is now off the market.

 

Are you confident that the person you got the coin from was unaware that it was fake?

[e1cnr]

Lucky for him he was not in it for much. ???

 

 

so his rip turned into a got ripped?