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Bust Half Dollar--MS64 Counterfeit slab?

Started by $ilverHawk,

22 posts in this topic

$ilverHawk

$ilverHawk

Posted
Posted

Cruising Ebay this evening looking for some deals on Bust Half Dollars and I ran across this listing.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/260752116396?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

 

What do you think? Is this an MS Bust Half Dollar? Here's an AU listing for comparison.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270859168024?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

 

No way this coin belongs in an MS64 holder.

 

Carl

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted

I am quite confident that the slab is not counterfeit. Look at a LOT MS64 Bust Halves in holders and that coin wont look suspicious.

 

Many uncirculated coins of that type appear to have rub or apparent rub, even those graded as high as MS65.

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physics-fan3.14

physics-fan3.14

Posted
Posted
I am quite confident that the slab is not counterfeit. Look at a LOT MS64 Bust Halves in holders and that coin wont look suspicious.

 

Many uncirculated coins of that type appear to have rub or apparent rub, even those graded as high as MS65.

 

For educational purposes - why do they have this "rub". Would you buy a coin as 64 that has this discoloration on the high points?

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
I am quite confident that the slab is not counterfeit. Look at a LOT MS64 Bust Halves in holders and that coin wont look suspicious.

 

Many uncirculated coins of that type appear to have rub or apparent rub, even those graded as high as MS65.

 

For educational purposes - why do they have this "rub". Would you buy a coin as 64 that has this discoloration on the high points?

 

The apparent "rub" might be due to a number of possible reasons. Among them are actual very light wear, cabinet friction, differences in strike and/or color/toning.

 

Almost all Bust Half Dollars exhibit at least some degree of apparent "rub". I try to avoid those with more of it and pursue those with less of it.

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BillJones

BillJones

Posted
Posted

The first coin (PCGS MS-64) has not been dipped while the second coin (raw AU) has been dipped. Comparing the two is not relevant.

 

For the record my impression from the photo is that the PCGS MS-64 is probably over graded. The coin has some unsightly black spots that don’t say “Choice Uncirculated” to me. I can’t say that with total certainty without seeing the coin in person, but that’s my impression from the photo. I also think that the slab is genuine.

 

As for PCGS I own a Bust half dollar in a PCGS MS-63 holder that is a slider AU-58. As collectors all of us goof up now and than, and that was one of my mistakes. AU coins, especially earlier 19th century pieces end up on Mint State holders more often than you might realize.

 

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BillJones

BillJones

Posted
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Interpreting what appear to be scans, I would have thought the PCGS coin to be rather nice overall.

 

Here is my 1833 half dollar which is in a PCGS MS-63 holder. The fields are dull. It's slider all the way. The real color is blue with mint luster showing through, but the fields are rubbed dull.

 

1833HalfDollarO-1.jpg1833HalfDollarR-1.jpg

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MBA101

MBA101

Posted
Posted

Something to be noted on these old halves is that there are often "flat" spots on these coins when a coin is not fully struck. This means that there was no metal "flow" over that area to create luster, leaving the surface structure different than the other areas of the coin. This may result in some of the high points having discoloration that appears to be wear, when it isn't. I am not sure how luster and surface oxidation interact on these coins but to Bill's point about his AU-63 (or is it really an MS coin heavily oxidized and lightly handled by grubby collector hands) here is what I think is the same thing in an old NGC holder (the obverse fields only have traces of remaining luster, though the reverse has complete luster, and the high points on both sides show discoloration)

1832107003.jpg

1832107004.jpg

 

For comparison, here is an AU-58 with unimpared field luster, but the toning was rubbed off a couple of tiny spots. The breast was not struck through and is flat, and there is no luster present there.

1833O-106O.jpg

1833O-106R.jpg

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$ilverHawk

$ilverHawk

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Posted

When I came across this Ebay listing the first thing that jumped out to me was the weakness of the strike and the high point rubs. Yes the photos are not good, but I still thought the Obverse was weakly struck and showed signs of circulation on the high points. I attributed this coin as 1827 O-141.I compared the coin in the listing to several MS Bust Half Dollars that I have that range from MS61 to MS 63. 1821, 1827,and 1831. All have toning ranges from dark to very light toning. Every single coin had a stronger strike. However, on closer examination my MS 61 and 62 coins had high point "rubs" that resemble the subject coin. Both MS 63 coins did not.

 

After reading the postings from Bill Jones and MBA 101, I understand their points about these older half dollars. A great many factors have to be considered in the assignment of a grade. Not the least of which is the minting process of these coins, die states etc.and I did not fully consider those points before passing judgement. The nuances of the history, minting, die marriages, etc. are what have drawn me into collecting this series and I have alot to learn.

 

Thanks to everyone that took the time to post a response to this thread. It has been enlightening.

 

I still say the subject coin is not worthy of a MS 64 grade. :devil: And I withdraw my "counterfeit" question.

 

Carl

 

 

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Frank Provasek

Frank Provasek

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There can be no mint luster on high points where the die never touched the planchet. Also, the scratches and nicks from the planchet tumbling and annealing process will not removed from points where the die never touched the planchet.

 

Looking for signs of rub in the fields is probably the most reliable way to detect actual wear.

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Keigwin

Keigwin

Posted
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Your eye is very good, physics-fan. Five are graded AU58, one is graded MS61.

 

Still a tough question: which earned the MS grade?

Lance.

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physics-fan3.14

physics-fan3.14

Posted
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I would guess the 1823 is graded MS.

 

Carl

 

That's my guess also.

 

The 1823 is the closest to being MS - but even if it is in an UNC holder, I would call it AU-61. There appears to be the slightest trace of rub on her breasts. Obviously, this is only a guess - they are excellent pictures, but they are still pictures.

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted
Your eye is very good, physics-fan. Five are graded AU58, one is graded MS61.

 

Still a tough question: which earned the MS grade?

Lance.

 

When I first saw the coins, I thought that the 1823 was the only uncirculated coin. I don't see any wear on the breasts.

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