One Dealer/Collector Taking Advantage of a Young Numismatist

[braddick]

 

This thread, from across the street outlines a transaction gone bad to worse.

I wish the transgressor would think his actions through and do the right thing.

 

Sadly, outing the other party is against PCGS forum rules.

What are the rules here?

[bradyc]

yep, i read that, looks like the poor college kid is getting bullied pretty good !

[MarkFeld]

Pat, last time I looked, we had only seen one side of the story. But based on what I did read, I agree with you.

 

And, if the situation is being accurately described, I sure would like to know whom the other party is.

 

NGC offers a lot more tolerance, in general, on their forums. But the problem with outting the other person here, is that, in effect, it would be outting him on the PCGS forum, as well. Still, I must admit, I had thought about that

[braddick]

^ PM sent.

[Paul S]

Well, my thread got locked, unfortunately. I still don't want to out him, but I wouldn't mind if somebody else did. By the way, I'm going to be the bigger man and ship the coins back on Friday.

 

 

 

-Paul

[Hard Times]

Paul,

As Don Willis noted, dealers let each other know privately who pays up and who does not. Taking his advice, you might want to PM some of the other professional photographers to give them a heads up on this.

 

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

 

Best, HT

[MarkFeld]

Well, my thread got locked, unfortunately. I still don't want to out him, but I wouldn't mind if somebody else did. By the way, I'm going to be the bigger man and ship the coins back on Friday.

 

 

 

-Paul

 

Paul, sorry to hear about this.

 

I understand that you don't believe the other person will actually pay the extra $500 if you re-shoot the images, the way he has requested. Call his bluff and offer to do so, once you have received cleared funds in that amount. I would be happy to serve an an escrow agent to receive the funds from him and then forward them to you after you have completed the work. So neither one of you will have to worry about the other person not performing his part of the agreement.

[jesbroken]

I do not know what state this occurred in, but I do know the sound of Coercion when I hear it. Webster calls coercion,

use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.

Now I feel that bullying someone via threats of lawsuit may or may not be the same in some states, but I know that the act of bullying is becoming less acceptable. I say offer the other individual, via private pm, the chance to explain their side of the situation or they will be outed on this forum(a bit of reverse bullying). Should they tell their side of the story on a forum then let the forum decide who to agree with, but if they do not feel like explaining their side, then sobeit---OUT THEM. At least out them via private pm to the several other photographers on our forums. They do not deserve such adversity in their markets.

JMO

Jim

[Mark T]

Well, my thread got locked, unfortunately. I still don't want to out him, but I wouldn't mind if somebody else did. By the way, I'm going to be the bigger man and ship the coins back on Friday.

 

 

 

-Paul

 

I would not return the coins to this person unless he pays you at least ½ for your efforts. If he wants them shipped he can pay the shipping.

Was there an agreement as to who would pay return shipping ?? If you picked them up why can he not just come get the coins ?? If this went to small claims court you would most likely win some judgment . Let him sue you – then you can countersue him.

I would advise you to have some form of contract going forward to protect yourself.

 

 

 

[Mark T]

Well, my thread got locked, unfortunately. I still don't want to out him, but I wouldn't mind if somebody else did. By the way, I'm going to be the bigger man and ship the coins back on Friday.

 

 

 

-Paul

 

By all means out the guy - does he post here ??

 

 

[Paul S]

I offered to split his insurance costs way before the deal went down. His response:

 

"Lol...no! Split it? You are too kind but that is just a cost of MY doing business. I pay for shipping and insurance both ways. That's the deal. :)"

 

 

I picked them up from the post office, not his house. I am so ready to out this guy, but I don't want to be the one to do it. If anyone knows, just go ahead and do it! I got a PM on the PCGS forums from another member who got screwed by the same guy recently! >_<

 

 

 

-Paul

[MarkFeld]

I offered to split his insurance costs way before the deal went down. His response:

 

"Lol...no! Split it? You are too kind but that is just a cost of MY doing business. I pay for shipping and insurance both ways. That's the deal. :)"

 

 

I picked them up from the post office, not his house. I am so ready to out this guy, but I don't want to be the one to do it. If anyone knows, just go ahead and do it! I got a PM on the PCGS forums from another member who got screwed by the same guy recently! >_<

 

 

 

-Paul

 

Paul you are not doing yourself any good by talking about another person supposedly having been "screwed" by the guy. That is not dealing with facts. Stick to the facts and be professional. And let me know if you want me to help with an escrow offer of the type I mentioned.

[Mark T]

I offered to split his insurance costs way before the deal went down. His response:

 

"Lol...no! Split it? You are too kind but that is just a cost of MY doing business. I pay for shipping and insurance both ways. That's the deal. :)"

 

 

I picked them up from the post office, not his house. I am so ready to out this guy, but I don't want to be the one to do it. If anyone knows, just go ahead and do it! I got a PM on the PCGS forums from another member who got screwed by the same guy recently! >_<

 

 

 

-Paul

 

Paul you are not doing yourself any good by talking about another person supposedly having been "screwed" by the guy. That is not dealing with facts. Stick to the facts and be professional. And let me know if you want me to help with an escrow offer of the type I mentioned.

 

The guy is being a to this kid. I am curious if he posts he who he is. After second thought it is probably best not to out him in a public forum . Private message would be better. And it would be good to hear the other side of the story.

[e1cnr]

I read ats but can not tell what they are trying to sue you for

 

 

are you keeping his coins? are they going to spend the filing fee to take you to small claims court?

 

can you still post there? DonWillis claimed awhile ago that even starting a thread and all who posted would be banned - they must have selective banning

[Kenneth F]

He is going to SUE you for WHAT? Because he cannot accept what your limitations are? Is he willing to pay all court fees to get his way??? doubtful.

 

Like others had said before, let your photography world know about this guy. Calling him out here wouldnt solve anything.

[MarkFeld]

I read ats but can not tell what they are trying to sue you for

 

 

are you keeping his coins? are they going to spend the filing fee to take you to small claims court?

 

can you still post there? DonWillis claimed awhile ago that even starting a thread and all who posted would be banned - they must have selective banning

 

Paul didn't reveal the other person's identity, so I don't think he broke any rules by posting what he did. And the other party has no basis for a lawsuit, as long as he gets his property back.

[James_OldeTowne]

I know nothing whatsoever of the parties involved.

 

But going only by the very first post ATS (I didn't bother to read any others), I think the OP should merely return the coins and chalk up the lost time (I believe it was six hours) to an unwelcome and expensive diversion. These things happen in life, and it doesn't mean either party is wrong or malicious.

 

Request shipping fees from the client, and ship the coins back on his responsibility.

 

Then, move on.

 

PS: nobody needs to be "outed" either. In the big scheme, it just isn't a scenario worth fretting over. If you are truly a professional as it appears you claim to be, you simply accept that these frustrating events are going to happen.

[Paul S]

I have recieved a Paypal payment from the guy of $155. $115 for my images, and $40 for shipping. He did however tell me his lawyer said:

 

"He states we must complete this part of the transaction separate from my damages lawsuit."

 

He followed that up with this:

 

 

"But, that is an action for another day, after I get the coins back IN THE SAME CONDITION I sent them to you."

 

 

Is it just me, or does it sound like he's going to make some damage up when he receives the coins?

 

 

 

-Paul

 

[noow]

Might be, but he can't prove that you "damaged" the coins.

[MarkFeld]

I have recieved a Paypal payment from the guy of $155. $115 for my images, and $40 for shipping. He did however tell me his lawyer said:

 

"He states we must complete this part of the transaction separate from my damages lawsuit."

 

He followed that up with this:

 

 

"But, that is an action for another day, after I get the coins back IN THE SAME CONDITION I sent them to you."

 

 

Is it just me, or does it sound like he's going to make some damage up when he receives the coins?

 

 

 

-Paul

 

There are no damages. Please tell D.B. I said to stop with the B.S.

[Paul S]

I agree, there are no damages. I take the upmost care of any coins sent to me for imaging. I'm just stating that it's rather suspicious that he's threatening this before I even mail the coins back.

 

 

 

-Paul

[MarkFeld]

I agree, there are no damages. I take the upmost care of any coins sent to me for imaging. I'm just stating that it's rather suspicious that he's threatening this before I even mail the coins back.

 

 

 

-Paul

 

Pay Mr. Bologna no attention. Just make sure that the coins are securely packaged, are sent to the correct address and that you have sufficient insurance coverage, tracking information and a signature requirement.

 

Now ignore him, don't let him get to you and have a good Thanksgiving.

[Paul S]

Thanks Mark, I will! Probably going to pack them up tonight so they'll be ready to ship Friday.

 

You have a good Thanksgiving too!

 

 

 

-Paul

[TheCoinGeezer]

I do not know what state this occurred in, but I do know the sound of Coercion when I hear it. Webster calls coercion,

use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.

Now I feel that bullying someone via threats of lawsuit may or may not be the same in some states, but I know that the act of bullying is becoming less acceptable. I say offer the other individual, via private pm, the chance to explain their side of the situation or they will be outed on this forum(a bit of reverse bullying). Should they tell their side of the story on a forum then let the forum decide who to agree with, but if they do not feel like explaining their side, then sobeit---OUT THEM. At least out them via private pm to the several other photographers on our forums. They do not deserve such adversity in their markets.

JMO

Jim

Threatening a law suit is coercion? Please, give me a break.

It is completely legal to tell someone you intend to use every legal means at your disposal to maintain your rights and last time I heard, law suits were still legal.

We've only heard one side of the story, so I won't jump to conclusions.

[TheCoinGeezer]

I read ats but can not tell what they are trying to sue you for

 

 

are you keeping his coins? are they going to spend the filing fee to take you to small claims court?

 

can you still post there? DonWillis claimed awhile ago that even starting a thread and all who posted would be banned - they must have selective banning

Don Willis is the biggest horse's patoot in the numismatic world.

 

[mkman123]

Glad there is somewhat of a good ending, thumbs up for Mark Feld helping coinkid with advice, etc

[coinman_23885]

Might be, but he can't prove that you "damaged" the coins.

 

I agree with noow. I don't believe there to be any damages, but even if there were, it would be his burden to prove. Even if there were damages, I doubt he could prove them (and I don't think that he would get anywhere on claiming the postal fees as damages). D.B. is just bluffing. Even if he had a case (which I don't believe that he does), do you really believe that he is going to spend funds to sue you and to seek counsel? Even the states that would consider permitting recovery of attorney's fees, these are usually quite limited (and I don't see anything where he could allege any viable cause of action to obtain a judgment in the first place). In summary, I wouldn't worry the least bit. I would mail the coins back, using the $115 submitted to you by D.B., with signature confirmation.

 

[coinman_23885]

I agree, there are no damages. I take the upmost care of any coins sent to me for imaging. I'm just stating that it's rather suspicious that he's threatening this before I even mail the coins back.

 

-Paul

 

Also, for future reference, I would have a written contract if you do not have one already. The contract should provide for situations such as this, including partial orders, return shipping, etc.

[EVillageProwler]

At the recent Baltimore show, I had a conversation with a vest pocket dealer popular here and ATS. This guy also does imaging, and told me a story of a client who was very particular about how he wanted the images done.

 

Minus the threatening language in Paul's situation, the dealer's client does seem somewhat like our D.B.

 

EVP

[dimefreak]

Sounds like something seateddime would do