Reeding count and overlap

[RWB]

Does anyone have information on overlapping edge reeding, and reeding counts on silver and gold US coins? 1881 and 1898 dollars seem to differ by 10, and other dates with differences are scattered about. I've also seen some older VAMworld postings about overlapping reeds.

 

(This ties into the "From Mine to Mint" book section discussion how collar dies were made and used.)

 

Thanks!

 

[messydesk]

There are actually quite a few Morgan dollar dates with overlapping reeding sections. I want to say it's a peculiarity with New Orleans coins (83-O VAM 26, 84-O VAM 4, 92-O VAM 5 come to mind), but I'd have to check to be sure.

 

Reed counts on Morgans vary a little over the series, and are generally between 177 and 194. There are a few notable and rather intriguing exceptions. The 1921 "wide reeding" coins (8 die pairs) have 157 reeds. Someone used to looking at reeds can easily pick these out without even comparing to other coins. Up until recently, it was thought that they were among the first coins made, as they all had the D1 (17 berry) reverse. The 1921 VAM 44 was discovered a few years ago, however, with the D2 reverse and infrequent reeding. The 1878 Rev. of '79 VAM 224 has 168 reeds, and is the only die pair with this collar. Not quite as easy to spot without a reference for comparison. The 1878 VAM 6, which is a common 8TF, is known with three different reed counts. VAMWorld doesn't give the numbers, but I think it's something like 178, 191, and 194.

[James_OldeTowne]

What I'd really like to know is why some Morgan dollars were struck using 378,942,888,725 silver molecules, while others have only 378,942,888,720. But I know it takes a long time to count that far.

[cpm9ball]

What I'd really like to know is why some Morgan dollars were struck using 378,942,888,725 silver molecules, while others have only 378,942,888,720. But I know it takes a long time to count that far.

 

Because 5 of the molecules were in heat at the time of the second count, and by the time they finished rechecking the calculation, 9 months had passed.

 

Chris

[RWB]

Sarcasm noted and appreciated!

 

Careful you don’t get called into court for that!

 

[Keigwin]

Sarcasm noted and appreciated!

 

Careful you don’t get called into court for that!

. Has your experience changed what you post in forums? Or how you say it?

Lance.

[RWB]

Yes, it has. Truth is not important. "Anything said can, and will, be used against you."

[RWB]

The reason for my reeding questions are that I've located documents that describe how reeded collars were made, and where it was done. The processes used, help to explain several edge varieties and anomalies. They also provide additional ways to determine authenticity in certain instances. I do not want to make conclusions without more data and analysis.

[cpm9ball]

The reason for my reeding questions are that I've located documents that describe how reeded collars were made, and where it was done. The processes used, help to explain several edge varieties and anomalies. They also provide additional ways to determine authenticity in certain instances. I do not want to make conclusions without more data and analysis.

 

Were the collars made at the Mint, or were they outsourced?

 

Chris

[RWB]

Collars were all made by the mints. Only nickel and cent planchets were purchased from contractors.

[zeewool]

Collars were all made by the mints.

 

Is the word 'mints' intentionally plural? If so, when did the branches become capable of such action?

[AegisIII]

What I'd really like to know is why some Morgan dollars were struck using 378,942,888,725 silver molecules, while others have only 378,942,888,720. But I know it takes a long time to count that far.

 

Wow, that rather debased. That's far less than a nangram of silver per coin! :-)

[RWB]

Collar dies were made by all the mints, as well as being supplied by Philadelphia. Dates of usage and method of production at each mint have not been determined - yet. VAM info and half dollar varieties are helping, but I am doubtful there will be any detailed documents found. The mints simply did not write down or keep detailed records of how they did things.

 

PS: I did learn the pickled gerbil snouts were not used to polish dies.

[zeewool]

Very interesting..... I had been under the firm assumption that both polishing plates and collars were included in die shipments to the branches...

 

The reason that pickled gerbil snouts were not used was for fear that vinegar (the primary ingredient in the pickling process) would have an adverse affect on die composition..., hence, only fresh gerbils were used, but they proved to be difficult to lock into position, as well as rather messy as they wore down from use, so Philly opted for gritted polishing plates, which also served to provide the proper radius to the die both upon initial basining and subsequent die refreshment..... Gerbils were used however, (on the earliest 1878 8TF dies), which is why basining proved to be such a problem.... this should all be documented somewhere in the archives.

[cpm9ball]

PS: I did learn the pickled gerbil snouts were not used to polish dies.

 

That's because they were too small and hard to get a good grip on them. I heard they opted for Boar's Head meat.

 

Chris

[RWB]

Dies and collars were sent together when there was a new design, and sometimes on other occasions. Collars were not subject to the care and security given face dies.

 

Ah...now I found the reference. The pickeled gerbil snouts were used to prepare the frosted devices of proof dies. The vinegar must have helped create the "frosty" look imparted by the snout texture. Thanks!

[cpm9ball]

Ah...now I found the reference. The pickeled gerbil snouts were used to prepare the frosted devices of proof dies. The vinegar must have helped create the "frosty" look imparted by the snout texture. Thanks!

 

I guess that must be why they didn't produce proofs in Nawlins. Dem cajuns dey like spice.

 

Chris

[RWB]

...now that readers are completely confused....

 

If anyone has sample reed counts (other than those mentioned), please let me know.

[cpm9ball]

...now that readers are completely confused....

 

If anyone has sample reed counts (other than those mentioned), please let me know.

 

Thanks for putting up with me, Roger, but it's James' fault. He got me started.

 

Chris

[RWB]

[e1cnr]

what is the easiest way to count reeds?

[Conder101]

Put the coin in the reflector of a flashlight and shoot a picture looking down into the reflector. this gives you a picture of the entire edge of the coin. Blow it up to a good working size and print a copy. Now you can easily pick a starting point and start counting reeds placing a tick mark on the picture every ten reeds or so. (This makes it easy on the eyes, helps keep from getting lost and gives you a starting point if for some reason you have to break off and go do something else in the middle of counting. You don't have to start over, just count ticks multiple by 10 and the continue counting from the last mark.)

[messydesk]

what is the easiest way to count reeds?

Put a dot on one of the reeds with a Sharpie to mark your starting point (or use a specific denticle or other design element near the edge as a reference). Then grab a business card or small piece of paper and set the edge in the starting reed. Slowly rotate the coin while holding the piece of paper still. As the paper "engages" with each reed, you'll hear a click. Count the clicks until you get to the starting position. Works quite well unless the reeds are heavily worn.

[RWB]

Messydesk's suggestion also works well if you want to count the spokes on your bicycle wheels!

 

(This is also similar to the grooved highway pavement, where your car tires can seem to sing a tune as you drive.)

[messydesk]

For bicycle spokes, I recommend baseball cards. There's plenty of worthless cardboard from the late '80s and early '90s that would suffice. If you're a bada$$, then you could also use the ace of spaces from a deck of cards.

 

Melodic FAIL aside, here's a grooved pavement "song" from a 2008 Honda commercial you might recall.

 

[cpm9ball]

(This is also similar to the grooved highway pavement, where your car tires can seem to sing a tune as you drive.)

 

I always seem to have trouble counting the grooves in the pavement when I'm going more than 70mph.

 

Chris

[RWB]

That's like counting reeds by laying a piece of carbon paper on plain paper, then rolling the coin on it. You calculate the coin's circumference, then measure that distance along the carbon marks on the plain paper, and finally count the marks to get the number of raised reeds.

 

On the highway, you have to do it based on your tires - or the pitch of the noise (which is a function of tread spacing and the road grooves and your speed).

 

[zeewool]

Gee whilikers..... Alla' you guys is so smart..... It just sets muh haid a swimmin' thinkin' 'bout such things.