altered color 0

[enc]

so from what ive read from my fellow coin collectors, i guess NGC only uses eye appeal for altered color designation.i find that incredible and disturbing..

i cant believe that they wouldnt have some kind of chemical testing .

 

thanks to all for the input.

[MarkFeld]

I don't think "eye appeal" has anything to do with NGC's "altered color" opinions, and I haven't seen that posted by collectors.

 

While not scientific, or nearly as objective or consistent as we would like, NGC's opinions pertaining to "altered color" are based on a great deal of knowledge, observation and experience.

 

 

[bsshog40]

I also don't see how you can chemically test a coin for altered color when it's usually a chemical in most occasions that actually causes the altered color.

[Kurtdog]

so from what ive read from my fellow coin collectors, i guess NGC only uses eye appeal for altered color designation.i find that incredible and disturbing..

i cant believe that they wouldnt have some kind of chemical testing .

 

thanks to all for the input.

I'll give you my honest opinion, but you're not going to like it. If you're asking a question like that, you're already gone. You need to lose the term "altered color" as a means of judging a coin's grade-worthiness. It's that simple.

[enc]

how can you loose the term altered color when thats what NGC puts on your slab.

[coinman_23885]

so from what ive read from my fellow coin collectors, i guess NGC only uses eye appeal for altered color designation.i find that incredible and disturbing..

i cant believe that they wouldnt have some kind of chemical testing .

 

thanks to all for the input.

 

Sometimes the alteration of color is created by mechanical means; thus, a chemical test would be of no avail. I do agree, that a chemical test may have limited benefits; however, most coin doctors are going to thoroughly wash off any residual chemicals that could potentially be used as a diagnostic. As such, the best way to determine whether a coin exhibits altered color is to look for color patterns known to exist with certain metal-chemical combinations.

[enc]

hello coinman

 

i agree and understand what you are saying.

the problem is that the coins that were graded as altered,look like good coins.

i put six MS coins together to see if i could tell the difference,three altered and three good ones.the only thing i could see is maybe a smudge mark.these are pennys im talking about. if i had a camera i would take a picture and post it.

as far as im concerned i think KURTDOG is wrong about grade worthyness not being a factor.

if he has any coins he would know that.

[TheMightyDuke]

hello coinman

 

i agree and understand what you are saying.

the problem is that the coins that were graded as altered,look like good coins.

i put six MS coins together to see if i could tell the difference,three altered and three good ones.the only thing i could see is maybe a smudge mark.these are pennys im talking about. if i had a camera i would take a picture and post it.

as far as im concerned i think KURTDOG is wrong about grade worthyness not being a factor.

if he has any coins he would know that.

 

"Lets get ready to rummmmmmmmbbbbllle!'

 

I think kurtdog has a better than average handle on things...he's WAY more than capable of explaining/understanding 'gradeworthyness'....'altered color' is not a 'determination' of bodybagging, or 'net grade'...altered SURFACE is.....QUESTIONABLE color is......QUESTIONABLE authenticity is, but I've never heard of altered color.

 

Methinks someone else needs to understand why a coin does not get a numerical grade , or it's 'gradeworthyness' (and it's gradeworthiness, no 'y', but an 'i'). Just sayin'....and it's probably not a great idea to question/slam the opinion of someone obviously as well-versed in the hobby as kurtdog is.

[TheMightyDuke]

Oh, before you 'tackle' the knowledge of someone with obviously superior knowledge (through lots of reading, homework in the hobby), you might be taken more seriously if you called 'pennys' by their technical name...cents (actually, if you really want to get technical, it's spelled 'pennies'). Everytime I hear the word 'penny', I think of my grandmother referring to them as 'pennies'.

 

With 18 posts in about ONE YEAR, you MAY want to get more involved before you contradict a member who participates frequently, and who DOES have the right answer....he knows what he's talking about.

 

edited to add.....I'm QUITE SURE kurtdog has coins nicer than 'pennies' that won't grade, due to 'altered color'......sorry, that term makes me laugh.....also, if you can look at 6 'pennies' and not tell the difference, except a 'smudge', you need to learn basic terminology, for starters, in order to be taken seriously, and read as much as you can, and learn to grade yourself...your comparison of the 6 makes it look like the only way you can grade is by relying on the number on the slab (no offense) . And, questioning someone like kurtdog, without proper knowledge, is not a positive step forward in YOUR trying to learn about this hobby. YOU think you have 6 'pennys' you can grade, yet can only differentiate by a 'smudge'???......thats why we have NGC and PCGS.....and if you disagree with their decision, you can always send them back in to see what they say about your 'pennys' the second time around.

[coinman_23885]

hello coinman

 

i agree and understand what you are saying.

the problem is that the coins that were graded as altered,look like good coins.

i put six MS coins together to see if i could tell the difference,three altered and three good ones.the only thing i could see is maybe a smudge mark.these are pennys im talking about. if i had a camera i would take a picture and post it.

as far as im concerned i think KURTDOG is wrong about grade worthyness not being a factor.

if he has any coins he would know that.

 

If by "grade worthiness" you mean market acceptable coloring, then I think you may have a point. Is it possible that the color is original, but market unacceptable (i.e. reminiscent of a color combination known to have resulted from methods commonly used to artificially recolor a coin) and the coin could end up in a body bag (or details/genuine slab in referring to PCGS/NGC).

 

With this said, I think there may be more than meets the eye with the coin. Do you have any high quality, high resolution images that you could post?

Edited October 30, 2011 by coinman_23885

[Kurtdog]

how can you loose the term altered color when thats what NGC puts on your slab.

Define "altered color." I'll define it. What it means is NGC doesn't want to put its trademark behind that color. Period. They have that right. What goes into those slabs and gets graded by them is their business. It's not your business or my business or anybody else's business. But, don't kid yourself. That's all it is. It doesn't mean they're possessed with any superior knowledge. To believe the latter is simply illusory. These are their slabs. This is their reputation. A reputation is like a brand--it sticks. They want to make these pretentious determinations on this arbitrary standard nobody including themselves can define in any rational, intelligible way, that's their business. More power to them. I disagree. I don't believe color, without more, should affect a coin's grade-worthiness. Hope that helps.

[MarkFeld]

hello coinman

 

i agree and understand what you are saying.

the problem is that the coins that were graded as altered,look like good coins.

i put six MS coins together to see if i could tell the difference,three altered and three good ones.the only thing i could see is maybe a smudge mark.these are pennys im talking about. if i had a camera i would take a picture and post it.

as far as im concerned i think KURTDOG is wrong about grade worthyness not being a factor.

if he has any coins he would know that.

 

....and it's probably not a great idea to question/slam the opinion of someone obviously as well-versed in the hobby as kurtdog is.

 

There is nothing wrong with questioning anyone's opinion. None of us are always right,opinions aren't always fact and questions often result in learning.

[enc]

sorry no pics

 

these coins have no color except copper color,no blue no pink no notable color.they look like good copper "pennys".and yes i have plenty of coins to compare.i dont collect color coins.

what does the amount of posts i put out there have to do with anything.i merely wanted to know how NGC can tell if a coin has altered color when it looks as copper as any other "penny" i own.

[MarkFeld]

sorry no pics

 

these coins have no color except copper color,no blue no pink no notable color.they look like good copper "pennys".and yes i have plenty of coins to compare.i dont collect color coins.

what does the amount of posts i put out there have to do with anything.i merely wanted to know how NGC can tell if a coin has altered color when it looks as copper as any other "penny" i own.

 

They are providing their best (expert) guess, based on a great deal of knowledge and experience. Perhaps the ones in question look different, in some way to them, even if not to you. Or maybe the results are inconsistent - we have no way of knowing.

[dnlsh]

Yes so do I. I recently had a nice 1926 S Lincoln cent with unc. details come back with altered color. How is that possible to see with the naked eye ?

[physics-fan3.14]

27 minutes ago, dnlsh said:

Yes so do I. I recently had a nice 1926 S Lincoln cent with unc. details come back with altered color. How is that possible to see with the naked eye ?

dnish, you've posted on a 6 year old thread. I suggest you start a new thread with your questions. I also *highly* suggest that you post pictures of your coin. We can give you a few general pointers, but pictures of your actual coin will be extremely helpful when we try to explain your coin. 

[Madisonpigeon]

On 10/27/2011 at 9:13 PM, enc said:

so from what ive read from my fellow coin collectors, i guess NGC only uses eye appeal for altered color designation.i find that incredible and disturbing..

i cant believe that they wouldnt have some kind of chemical testing .

 

thanks to all for the input.

Ngc is horrible! I sent in liberty nickels costing me $35 apiece for grading and they take 1 quick look , don't even assign a grade! Just label uncirculated details altered color" my grandfather had these nickels in an old capital holder inside a velvet purple bag , this caused color over 50+ years! All of these nickels would grade ms67 as they are all superb! Now what are they worth?

Never send a coin to ngc again 

[RWB]

RE: "Sometimes the alteration of color is created by mechanical means...."

Can someone please explain this comment?

[gmarguli]

On 5/27/2020 at 9:19 AM, Madisonpigeon said:

Ngc is horrible! I sent in liberty nickels costing me $35 apiece for grading and they take 1 quick look , don't even assign a grade! Just label uncirculated details altered color" my grandfather had these nickels in an old capital holder inside a velvet purple bag , this caused color over 50+ years! All of these nickels would grade ms67 as they are all superb! Now what are they worth?

Never send a coin to ngc again 

Post some pictures. Let's see this 50+ year natural color on those MS67 gems. 

[gmarguli]

On 5/27/2020 at 9:24 AM, RWB said:

RE: "Sometimes the alteration of color is created by mechanical means...."

Can someone please explain this comment?

Best guess:

[RWB]

Hmmm....looks perfectly normal mint-issued, hand colored 'collector plate' in genuine professional acrylic paint applied by wandering sidewalk painters with two hands tied behind their back....more or less.

[Conder101]

On 5/27/2020 at 12:19 PM, Madisonpigeon said:

I sent in liberty nickels costing me $35 apiece for grading and they take 1 quick look , don't even assign a grade!

Something a lot of people don't understand, you aren't paying them for a "grade", you are paying them for an "opinion".  They believe the color was questionable. They gave their opinion. You got exactly what you paid for.

 

On 5/27/2020 at 12:19 PM, Madisonpigeon said:

Now what are they worth?

The same thing they always were, whatever someone is willing to pay for them.

[Madisonpigeon]

On 10/30/2011 at 4:04 PM, MarkFeld said:

 

They are providing their best (expert) guess, based on a great deal of knowledge and experience. Perhaps the ones in question look different, in some way to them, even if not to you. Or maybe the results are inconsistent - we have no way of knowing.

ICG WILL AT LEAST GRADE YOUR COIN. EXAMPLE: MS66 altered color.

Ngc uncirculated details altered color  

Can't distinguish between an ms60 or ms70 with NGC. Useless in my opinion!

[Madisonpigeon]

On 5/28/2020 at 6:12 PM, Conder101 said:

Something a lot of people don't understand, you aren't paying them for a "grade", you are paying them for an "opinion".  They believe the color was questionable. They gave their opinion. You got exactly what you paid for.

 

The same thing they always were, whatever someone is willing to pay for them.

 

On 10/30/2011 at 4:04 PM, MarkFeld said:

 

They are providing their best (expert) guess, based on a great deal of knowledge and experience. Perhaps the ones in question look different, in some way to them, even if not to you. Or maybe the results are inconsistent - we have no way of knowing.

Well I'd like to know a grade after all they are called a grading company NOT an opinion company. 

What is wrong with stating ms66 details with altered color? Icg grades that way! Geez throwing money away with NGC in MY OPINION 

[Conder101]

Then have ICG do all your slabbing and don't submit to NGC.

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, Madisonpigeon said:

 

Well I'd like to know a grade after all they are called a grading company NOT an opinion company. 

What is wrong with stating ms66 details with altered color? Icg grades that way! Geez throwing money away with NGC in MY OPINION 

Grading is an opinion.

And if a coin has been recolored, cleaned, etc., a numerical details grade is largely irrelevant.

[kbbpll]

I appreciate that there are a spectrum of opinions on this. Ultimately it's up to the TPG how they want to handle it, and their customers should go into it understanding and accepting that. To me, "UNC Details" is mostly useless as a grade. It informs me that a professional grader decided that something unacceptable happened to the coin, but beyond that I'm left to grade it myself. I would much prefer to have a technical MS65 "lightly cleaned" than a straight-grade MS60 bag marked within an inch of its life. I have to make that determination on my own.

[Just Bob]

8 hours ago, Madisonpigeon said:

ICG WILL AT LEAST GRADE YOUR COIN. EXAMPLE: MS66 altered color.

Ngc uncirculated details altered color  

Can't distinguish between an ms60 or ms70 with NGC. Useless in my opinion!

I assume you did not read the policies and/or frequently asked questions that are posted on NGC's "help center" webpagebefore sending in your coins. If you had, you would have seen this:

"NGC assigns an adjectival NGC Details Grade to coins that have surface conditions that preclude numeric grading. These surface conditions include improper cleaning, scratches and damage."

or this:

"Numeric grades give a strong indication of a coin's value relative to its value in other grades. Most collectors and dealers would pay more for an MS 64 than an MS 63. This is not necessarily the case for coins that have received NGC Details grades."

The value of NGC Details-graded coins is much more subjective due to the variety and severity of the surface problems that result in NGC Details grades. It depends a lot on one's personal preference. Some collectors may prefer an XF Details Improperly Cleaned coin to an AU Details Scratched coin, while for others it may be the opposite.

If NGC were to assign numeric grades to coins with surface problems, it might imply that higher graded examples would be worth more than lower graded examples. That would not always be the case, however, depending on the type and severity of the problem. An MS 64 Scratched coin would not necessarily be worth more than an MS 63 Improperly Cleaned coin; it could be the opposite.

To avoid this potentially confusing scenario, we describe an NGC Details-graded coin's condition with an adjectival grade range along with a statement of the primary surface problem".

Might have saved you some frustration if you had done a bit of research before submitting.

If you had read this prior to submitting, you would have known that, in the event your coins were determined to have issues, they would not receive a numeric grade.

[VKurtB]

On 6/4/2020 at 9:17 PM, Just Bob said:

I assume you did not read the policies and/or frequently asked questions that are posted on NGC's "help center" webpagebefore sending in your coins. If you had, you would have seen this:

"NGC assigns an adjectival NGC Details Grade to coins that have surface conditions that preclude numeric grading. These surface conditions include improper cleaning, scratches and damage."

or this:

"Numeric grades give a strong indication of a coin's value relative to its value in other grades. Most collectors and dealers would pay more for an MS 64 than an MS 63. This is not necessarily the case for coins that have received NGC Details grades."

The value of NGC Details-graded coins is much more subjective due to the variety and severity of the surface problems that result in NGC Details grades. It depends a lot on one's personal preference. Some collectors may prefer an XF Details Improperly Cleaned coin to an AU Details Scratched coin, while for others it may be the opposite.

If NGC were to assign numeric grades to coins with surface problems, it might imply that higher graded examples would be worth more than lower graded examples. That would not always be the case, however, depending on the type and severity of the problem. An MS 64 Scratched coin would not necessarily be worth more than an MS 63 Improperly Cleaned coin; it could be the opposite.

To avoid this potentially confusing scenario, we describe an NGC Details-graded coin's condition with an adjectival grade range along with a statement of the primary surface problem".

Might have saved you some frustration if you had done a bit of research before submitting.

If you had read this prior to submitting, you would have known that, in the event your coins were determined to have issues, they would not receive a numeric grade.

Now, now, let’s not get all radical and junk. If we start expecting people to actually read stuff, the whole hobby may implode.