slabbed coins where the slab makes up more than 80% of the sale price?

[michael]

are there coins out there that get into slabs where the slab makes over 80% of the current selling price as compaired to the same coin if cracked out of the holder and sold raw??

 

 

if so care to give............specific examples??

 

michael

[spy88]

It's a very interesting question, Michael, but one that I personally don't have nor can I think of any examples. But I'm sure there are some out there, just can't imagine what it might be or why anybody would make the decision to fork out an 80% premium based solely on the holder!

 

David

[Bruceswar]

Full step nickels can be one... if you pick a Gem up for few bucks and if it was slabbed it would bring alot more... like in my case...2 bucks... for a 1941 D 6 Full steps... try buying a slabbed one at that price in any grade much less MS 65 or so....

[cladking]

It should be remembered that all coin prices are set by a buyer and a seller. Market values are merely anticipated rates at which coins can be sold based on historical data. There are large numbers of buyers who won't buy some coins at all unless they are slabbed because of heavy counterfeiting or excessive problems with originality. This doesn't make a gem 1914-D cent worthless on the market it merely makes raw examples unsaleable to many individuals.

 

By the same token there are many coins with extremely thin markets. While there are hundreds of thousands of potential buyers for the '14-D if the price is right, there are very few buyers for a coin like an unc 1897 Dominican Pepublic peso. If most of the few buyers of this coin insisted on encapsulation it might appear that the coin had little value outside of the holder. Those who fixate on such things might take this to mean that it's a very common coins and those few who want one are throwing their money away. In point of fact, this is a very rare coin and one won't find a crowd around it and very high prices when it is located.

[goose3]

I will post what may be an upopular opinion.....

 

I believe that when it comes to virtually ANY Top Pop or Pop Top (whatever) modern coin, especially the Pop 1's of anything that sell for exhorbant multiples of the next lower grade, that the plastic makes up 99.9 percent of the "value" of said coin.

 

I would also say to anyone that possesses one of these and disagrees with my statement......how about cracking that coin out and listing it Raw in any large reputible auction house or ebay and call it a PF70 or whatever (yet while making NO mention of what plastic it used to reside in) and see what that coin fetches. Possibly a few bucks? Who knows but I feel pretty darn safe in stating that I think it would be a mere fraction of what it would go for in the plastic.

[gmarguli]

Sure. Basically any PF70 coin.

 

Most PF69 coins. I can sell a 1985-S 10c in a PF69 slab for maybe $8, but take the coin out of the slab and it sells for 50c. Same holds true for many modern proofs.

 

For an MS65 state quarter you could get maybe $5 in a slab and at best 50c out of a slab. Same for higher grades.

 

Liner coins can also lose 80% of their value. Take a coin that needed to be resubmitted 20 times until it made it into a certain grade. If the undergrade sells for only 10% then cracking this coin out might only get you 20% of the slabbed price.

[spy88]

Goose, I don't think I would disagree with your assessment. If a top pop coin without the slab were to go up for sale at any venue of choice, it would be consiously graded by those viewing it and based solely on two criteria. 1) Is the coin a MSXX or a XY? 2) Is it better then the one I already have or fills a hole? The grade would be as varied as there are bidders/viewers for the coin: some low, some high, some right on and the bids would reflect their grades thus value.

 

Either way, IMO, it would not bring in the amount that if holdered by PCGS or NGC would command. Almost all of us hold a raw coin (coins) that if slabbed might bring a price where 80% comes from the slab. Then again, as Michaels question asks 80% slab value, I think it is the insert that is more responsible for the 80% then the slab name.

 

David

[cladking]

I will post what may be an upopular opinion.....

 

I believe that when it comes to virtually ANY Top Pop or Pop Top (whatever) modern coin, especially the Pop 1's of anything that sell for exhorbant multiples of the next lower grade, that the plastic makes up 99.9 percent of the "value" of said coin.

 

I would also say to anyone that possesses one of these and disagrees with my statement......how about cracking that coin out and listing it Raw in any large reputible auction house or ebay and call it a PF70 or whatever (yet while making NO mention of what plastic it used to reside in) and see what that coin fetches. Possibly a few bucks? Who knows but I feel pretty darn safe in stating that I think it would be a mere fraction of what it would go for in the plastic.

 

So if you were interested in buying coins which were worth five times as much in a slab and you came across what would be a $1000 coin would you buy it? My guess is you wouldn't because you'd worry about why the owner didn't slab it.

 

While it's true that this applies to moderns US coins much more than any other (it is a bashing thread after all), it does not apply to all moderns. Try removing a gem Ike from a holder and presenting it to any knowledgeable modern collector or dealer and you'll certainly be offered far more than 20% for it.

 

Would you buy all your coins from a scan on E-bay and the seller's description and assurance of authenticity. It's not too surprising that with coins with large jumps between grades that this might be even less popular.

[DonHeath]

Michael, I think in the current environment there are many coins that fit the profile you've suggested (modern and classic). I think each of us assigns value differently, and that's as it should be.

 

Goose, I think in many cases your position is reasonable, but not all. I'll ask you a question regarding a coin I don't consider modern. On January 10th, 2004, there was a 1909-S VDB Lincoln graded PCGS MS66 sold in the Heritage sale (lot 2016) that realized $17,250. In your opinion, what would that coin be worth raw to any but the most confident and expert specialist?

[goose3]

So if you were interested in buying coins which were worth five times as much in a slab and you came across what would be a $1000 coin would you buy it? My guess is you wouldn't because you'd worry about why the owner didn't slab it.

 

given your scenario WHO wouldn't be leery of such a situation. That situation is certainly far more applicable to the "modern arena" than any other.

 

I collect key date coins for the most part so I am not concerned about populations much less the grade on the slab. I do buy most of them slabbed but that is mainly for authenticity purposes as well as some assurance that the coin is problem free. I have and will buy them raw from reputable dealers and will never hesitate to do so.

 

I try and buy coins that are worth virtually the same IN or OUT of the plastic such as my XF 1914d 1c, G6 Chain, Ag3 wreath, etc...just to name a quick few.

 

Try removing a gem Ike from a holder and presenting it to any knowledgeable modern collector or dealer and you'll certainly be offered far more than 20% for it.

I'd sure be interested in what an offer would be for someone cracking an MS69 Ike (if there's such a thing) and selling it raw to a knowledgeable modern collector or dealer. For arguements sake let's say it was "worth" 5000.00 to some registry crazed person in the plastic and that an MS68 is worth 500.00 to the same. I think expecting "far more than %20" of the 5K would not even be in the ballpark of the offer if the seller does not disclose anything about the coin being in any holder.

 

If I bust out my old AU50 '56 Flyer and offer it to someone such as Snow, I'd feel pretty comfortable saying that he would pay the same whether raw or slabbed.

 

Collectors (of both moderns and classics) in the ultra high grades play the dangerous game of crackouts. I personally don't believe that ANY coin should be assigned the 70 grade. I don't feel that there is such an animal. Many times the services cannot even grade the same high grade coin consistantly from one submission to the next. How many times have you read here or across the street about someone submitting a coin several times and receiving all sorts of different grades and BB's out of those several times before they ultimately give up or receive that one point "bump"? Way too many for me to have much faith in the "registry caliber" grades/coins much less any in the mid/upper MS/PF ranges.

[goose3]

909-S VDB Lincoln graded PCGS MS66 sold in the Heritage sale (lot 2016) that realized $17,250.

 

Don,

surely if that coin were advertised as raw and as MS65 or 66 there would only be a select group of people looking at something such as that because that is not a price/grade range of a great majority of the collectors out there. I don't think it would go for 17K but I also don't think it would sell for 5K either. The people looking at such a coin would more than likely be much more knowledgeable about that coin and the grading of such a piece than some lowlife like me with a 63RB.

[Elcontador]

Michael, an interesting topic. I think this applies with most high grade type. Personally, I wouldn't go near a raw coin, with the possible exception of a Bust $, because slabbed or not, most of which have been played with, anyway.

 

More specifically, I agree with Greg's comment re a liner coin. Also, any other coin whose value rises by an obscene multiple if the grade goes up one increment. Examples in more modern coinage would be 1940s issue S Mint Walkers between MS 64 & MS 65.

 

In older coins, virtually any Capped Bust coin between MS 64 & MS 65 (you could also use this series re MS 65 & MS 66, but there are so few 6s out there, I didn't think it would be a good example)..

[cladking]

 

 

I'd sure be interested in what an offer would be for someone cracking an MS69 Ike (if there's such a thing) and selling it raw to a knowledgeable modern collector or dealer. For arguements sake let's say it was "worth" 5000.00 to some registry crazed person in the plastic and that an MS68 is worth 500.00 to the same. I think expecting "far more than %20" of the 5K would not even be in the ballpark of the offer if the seller does not disclose anything about the coin being in any holder.

 

 

There are no regular issue MS-69 Ikes and probably no MS-68's. MS-67's are quite scarce and will bring prices of many thousands of dollars. Many Ike specialists can tell the difference between top notch Ikes and second tier coins. There are buyers of these though even the strongest buyers will have to leave a little cushion in case he has to send it in more than once. Offer me a raw gem quarter and I just might offer more than what a slabbed one would go for. Obviously when you're referring to coins with smaller spreads in grades and huge differences in the prices between the grades there will be a steep discount for raw coins. This simply means that collectors need to slab such coins to make them saleable, it doesn't mean that either slabbed or raw coins are uncollectible or especially vulnerable to market moves.

[DonHeath]

surely if that coin were advertised as raw and as MS65 or 66 there would only be a select group of people looking at something such as that because that is not a price/grade range of a great majority of the collectors out there.

 

Goose, you got right to the heart of my intent. I think when we see incredible prices realized in almost any series, we're seeing action from only the very small minority of collectors who consider themselves specialists in the series they're bidding in. I know there are lots of modern's sold for a premium that would likely be of less value were it not for the TPG's, because frankly I believe many new collectors choose these series based on their relatively low cost with hopes of completing a meaningful collection, and because that same collector base lacks confidence in their ability to grade those coins without the aid of a TPG. I think absent the TPG's, there would be far less competition for condition rarities in ALL series, but perhaps it would affect moderns the most because their collector base is generally greener. I suppose I'm in the minority in that I like all coins, and I really like nice examples. I have and will buy modern condition rarities for a premium without the holder and be quite content with my purchases, and to be honest, I've benefited from the TPG's increasing the marketability of my purchases. I suppose to answer Michael's question, without exception I believe condition rarities in every series benefit greatly from the TPG's opinion and grade guaranty. I think the benefit is proportional to the experience and size of the collector base. JMO I will however gladly pay four figures for a raw 1965 half with perfect mirrors, no marks, and full heavy cameo on both sides.

[goose3]

There are buyers of these though even the strongest buyers will have to leave a little cushion in case he has to send it in more than once

 

BINGO! if the coin IS an MS/PF 69/70 to the eye of the strong buyer, then why would he/she need to submit it more than once? why not keep it raw? Are you essentially saying that the plastic makes it worth the money?

 

While I'm not a huge fan of moderns and certainly would never recommend them to anyone, to each his own and for what it's worth I have a few. I have the Matte 98 Kennedy and the Matte 94 and 97 Jeffs because I consider them to be "key" coins. Heck I even have all of the Lincoln doubled dies!

[cladking]

There are buyers of these though even the strongest buyers will have to leave a little cushion in case he has to send it in more than once

 

BINGO! if the coin IS an MS/PF 69/70 to the eye of the strong buyer, then why would he/she need to submit it more than once? why not keep it raw? Are you essentially saying that the plastic makes it worth the money?

 

 

I'm just saying if a dealer or collector wants to sell a coin such as an MS-67 Ike or a 1909-S vdb cent then it will get the best price after it is slabbed. This makes the slab worth at least the cost of grading on such coins. If I were buying the coin for my collection, it probably wouldn't be slabbed at all until I was ready to sell.