"Would you say this is an insulting offer?"

[TomB]

I replied ATS that the core problem I had seen with the offer was the fact that the coin was fresh and new in the dealer's inventory, but the client asked for a price consistent with a piece that had languished for some time and needed to be moved. This is not realistic.

[seanq-migration]

Given the new facts that have been revealed, it appears that you are referencing the 1885 PCGS PR63 Morgan Dollar on your price list. His pricing wasn't far enough below the selling price to make the offer insulting, especially given that the last five sales records at Heritage average $2,691. While I cannot say that I blame you for your frustration, you put a lot of money into the coin to expect a $375 mark-up. It sounds to me like you paid relatively close to the retail value of the coin. I will admit that the coin is premium quality and that it exhibits pleasant toning, but I cannot fairly say that I would feel insulted if someone refused to pay a few hundred over retail for it. I'm not trying to be rude or offensive, but you asked for an honest opinion.

 

 

Auction 1159, Lot 3802 Friday, September 9, 2011 63 PCGS $2,880.75 *

Auction 1110, Lot 1498 Sunday, June 29, 2008 63 PCGS $2,990.00

Auction 414, Lot 3201 Monday, August 14, 2006 63 PCGS $2,185.00

Auction 1139, Lot 2647 Sunday, May 2, 2010 63 NGC $2,530.00

Auction 1114, Lot 2458 Sunday, August 3, 2008 63 NGC $2,760.00

Auction 434, Lot 5064 Saturday, May 12, 2007 63 NGC $2,990.00

 

PCGS Price Guide Value $2,800

Numismedia $2,970

 

* Auction in question

 

You were neither rude nor offensive. However, it appears that you might have performed an incomplete search, and maybe the would-be buyer did, as well.

 

Did you look up only 1885's? If so, it would have been better to have looked up all dates of that grade and then excluded any results for better/rare dates. Below is just one example. I did pay a strong price for the coin (because I felt it deserved it) and, as a result, marked it up less than many other sellers would have.

 

Sold For: $3,308.55‡

 

1879 $1 PR63 PCGS. CAC.... [Open item in a new window]

Lot 4140 » Silver and Related Dollars » Morgan Dollars

Service: PCGS

Grade: PR63

Auction Date:

Jun 3, 2011

Bid Source: Internet

 

 

Your example above is not a fair comparison, the 1879 had a CAC sticker, I don't believe the 1885 does. That could easily explain why that coin sold for 10% more than the other examples quoted to you by your buyer.

 

 

Sean Reynolds

[jom]

Your example above is not a fair comparison, the 1879 had a CAC sticker, I don't believe the 1885 does. That could easily explain why that coin sold for 10% more than the other examples quoted to you by your buyer.

 

Then again, Mark Feld's opinion is as good as anyone who works for CAC so that evens the game right there, IMO.

 

jom

[x2rider]

Some of my favorite/best coins have come from Mark. I've found you better jump on a coin he offers or it's gone.

 

Very true. P.S. Did anyone here pick up the half cent that he had in his most recent list? I emailed him within 4 hours and I was the 4th or 5th email he had received offering to purchase the piece. I was too late again!

Yes, someone from here did buy that coin - it was, by far, the most popular coin from my new list. But I will leave it to the buyer to fess up or not.

 

Um err . It was um err ME

I was going to wait until Coindude had imaged it for me but the game is up

 

The email list came through from Mark while I was on the computer and knowing Mark and knowing his taste couldn't get the reply back fast enough

[leeg]

Um err . It was um err ME.

 

Nice grab! (thumbs u

[AnkurJ]

Nice half cent! The surfaces on the coin did concern me as that color doesn't look original. Just my opinion.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I am curious.

 

Are the words of Ms. Sperber previously posted considered offensive or "insulting" to the original potential Buyer of the coin offered by Mark Feld, and this is the reason for stating the future would cause him (the original potential Buyer) to think twice before conducting another potential transaction with Ms. Sperber?

 

Respectfully, (always)

John Curlis

 

 

Disclosure: I have never physically met Ms. Sperber, Mark Feld, or AnkurJ.

I have bought coins from Mr. Feld. Mr. Feld also sold a coin for me.

 

[MarkFeld]

Given the new facts that have been revealed, it appears that you are referencing the 1885 PCGS PR63 Morgan Dollar on your price list. His pricing wasn't far enough below the selling price to make the offer insulting, especially given that the last five sales records at Heritage average $2,691. While I cannot say that I blame you for your frustration, you put a lot of money into the coin to expect a $375 mark-up. It sounds to me like you paid relatively close to the retail value of the coin. I will admit that the coin is premium quality and that it exhibits pleasant toning, but I cannot fairly say that I would feel insulted if someone refused to pay a few hundred over retail for it. I'm not trying to be rude or offensive, but you asked for an honest opinion.

 

 

Auction 1159, Lot 3802 Friday, September 9, 2011 63 PCGS $2,880.75 *

Auction 1110, Lot 1498 Sunday, June 29, 2008 63 PCGS $2,990.00

Auction 414, Lot 3201 Monday, August 14, 2006 63 PCGS $2,185.00

Auction 1139, Lot 2647 Sunday, May 2, 2010 63 NGC $2,530.00

Auction 1114, Lot 2458 Sunday, August 3, 2008 63 NGC $2,760.00

Auction 434, Lot 5064 Saturday, May 12, 2007 63 NGC $2,990.00

 

PCGS Price Guide Value $2,800

Numismedia $2,970

 

* Auction in question

 

You were neither rude nor offensive. However, it appears that you might have performed an incomplete search, and maybe the would-be buyer did, as well.

 

Did you look up only 1885's? If so, it would have been better to have looked up all dates of that grade and then excluded any results for better/rare dates. Below is just one example. I did pay a strong price for the coin (because I felt it deserved it) and, as a result, marked it up less than many other sellers would have.

 

Sold For: $3,308.55‡

 

1879 $1 PR63 PCGS. CAC.... [Open item in a new window]

Lot 4140 » Silver and Related Dollars » Morgan Dollars

Service: PCGS

Grade: PR63

Auction Date:

Jun 3, 2011

Bid Source: Internet

 

 

Your example above is not a fair comparison, the 1879 had a CAC sticker, I don't believe the 1885 does. That could easily explain why that coin sold for 10% more than the other examples quoted to you by your buyer.

 

 

Sean Reynolds

Sorry, I disagree. It is unfair to assume that coin brought the price it did, due to the CAC sticker. That coin (and mine ,too, for that matter) brought well above the levels of CAC bids for PR63 Morgan Dollars. Sometimes it is about the actual coins and not the grades and/or stickers.

[MarkFeld]

Your example above is not a fair comparison, the 1879 had a CAC sticker, I don't believe the 1885 does. That could easily explain why that coin sold for 10% more than the other examples quoted to you by your buyer.

 

Then again, Mark Feld's opinion is as good as anyone who works for CAC so that evens the game right there, IMO.

 

jom

Thanks, but I disagree. I would take the opinion of CAC over mine in many, if not most cases.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Logic, Logic, Logic!

Why do we always have to read Logic?

It gets boring....

 

Respectrfully,

john Curlis

 

[Hard Times]

AnkurJ, When you buy a coin from Mark, you are purchasing a coin that Mark feels is extremely PQ for the grade and has unique characteristics that make it special. If so, the past auction records are only a hint of what the value of the coin is and these are likely too low for this coin. What you are getting for the '10-20%' fee over the price he paid is Mark's expertise on what a PQ coin is. As Laura notes, no dealer can make it on 4% margins. Even 10% is tight when the dealer is out there personally selecting each coin he/she sells and is not a high volume, sell anything, dealer.

 

It is up to you to decide what you want to pay or not for this stunner, but what is rather disingenuous is that your started a thread ATS where Mark has no chance to reply, to essentially air the laundry out so that he felt compelled to counter it here with a thread. If I were Mark, I would never sell a coin to you again, and if you tried to sell him one, I think he will likely give you an 'insulting' offer for it........

[Hard Times]

Some of my favorite/best coins have come from Mark. I've found you better jump on a coin he offers or it's gone.

 

Very true. P.S. Did anyone here pick up the half cent that he had in his most recent list? I emailed him within 4 hours and I was the 4th or 5th email he had received offering to purchase the piece. I was too late again!

Yes, someone from here did buy that coin - it was, by far, the most popular coin from my new list. But I will leave it to the buyer to fess up or not.

 

Um err . It was um err ME

I was going to wait until Coindude had imaged it for me but the game is up

 

The email list came through from Mark while I was on the computer and knowing Mark and knowing his taste couldn't get the reply back fast enough

 

I will bet X2 paid at the high end of auction values, or even possibly higher, for this coin. But it was worth every half penny and in 5-15 years he will make a tidy profit if he ever sells. This is a typical Feld stunning offering.

[x2rider]

Some of my favorite/best coins have come from Mark. I've found you better jump on a coin he offers or it's gone.

 

Very true. P.S. Did anyone here pick up the half cent that he had in his most recent list? I emailed him within 4 hours and I was the 4th or 5th email he had received offering to purchase the piece. I was too late again!

Yes, someone from here did buy that coin - it was, by far, the most popular coin from my new list. But I will leave it to the buyer to fess up or not.

 

Um err . It was um err ME

I was going to wait until Coindude had imaged it for me but the game is up

 

The email list came through from Mark while I was on the computer and knowing Mark and knowing his taste couldn't get the reply back fast enough

 

I will bet X2 paid at the high end of auction values, or even possibly higher, for this coin. But it was worth every half penny and in 5-15 years he will make a tidy profit if he ever sells. This is a typical Feld stunning offering.

The thing about this coin is that I didn't do my homework on what the latest auction prices were foir this coin or come to think of it any coin I have bought from Mark . I know that I am buying a PQ piece and will pay the extra for it .

 

When I look at the Numismedia prices for my coins that are in the registry, not one is even close to their quoted prices becuase every coin is different and therefore should be priced individually

[Hard Times]

X2 - exactly, published prices and auction records have only marginal bearing on prices paid for PQ coins.

[MarkFeld]

Some of my favorite/best coins have come from Mark. I've found you better jump on a coin he offers or it's gone.

 

Very true. P.S. Did anyone here pick up the half cent that he had in his most recent list? I emailed him within 4 hours and I was the 4th or 5th email he had received offering to purchase the piece. I was too late again!

Yes, someone from here did buy that coin - it was, by far, the most popular coin from my new list. But I will leave it to the buyer to fess up or not.

 

Um err . It was um err ME

I was going to wait until Coindude had imaged it for me but the game is up

 

The email list came through from Mark while I was on the computer and knowing Mark and knowing his taste couldn't get the reply back fast enough

 

I will bet X2 paid at the high end of auction values, or even possibly higher, for this coin. But it was worth every half penny and in 5-15 years he will make a tidy profit if he ever sells. This is a typical Feld stunning offering.

The thing about this coin is that I didn't do my homework on what the latest auction prices were foir this coin or come to think of it any coin I have bought from Mark . I know that I am buying a PQ piece and will pay the extra for it .

 

When I look at the Numismedia prices for my coins that are in the registry, not one is even close to their quoted prices becuase every coin is different and therefore should be priced individually

 

I greatly appreciate the vote of confidence. But, for the record, I certainly sell plenty of coins which are other than PQ. Whether they appear to be PQ or not, I make an effort to price my coins fairly and competitively, based on their quality.

 

Regarding the Half Cent - I glanced at the Heritage archives and saw that a few examples had sold for less than mine, while others had sold for more. I didn't calculate the average price realized, but I don't think it was priced at/sold for PQ money.

[coinman_23885]

Regarding the Half Cent - I glanced at the Heritage archives and saw that a few examples had sold for less than mine, while others had sold for more. I didn't calculate the average price realized, but I don't think it was priced at/sold for PQ money.

 

It didn't sell for PQ money, and that's why I think that you had so many prospective buyers, even more so than for your other pieces. The coin is gorgeous and is worth every bit and then some of your low asking price. If you ever come across a nice BN or RB (full red high grade pieces are out of my range momentarily) piece like this again, please let me know!

[Catbert]

I don't know the buyer.

 

I do know the seller and trust him.

 

I am not a dealer.

 

The sales price seems reasonable to me.

 

The offer was unreasonable.

 

Would I be "insulted" were I the seller? A strong word that would have to be based upon my knowledge of the buyer from previous interactions and whether they were an experienced or rookie customer. If experienced, then I might be irritated and then classify him as unserious buyer. I would then tell him he is unserious (and why) and then end the communication there.

[RWB]

An “insult” is an emotional action (or reaction). It has little to do with your monetary offer or the dealer’s rejection of it. If the emotional expression was strong, then you have learned another way to influence the seller, and that can help you control the transaction – present or future.

 

Just a thought....

[James_OldeTowne]

I only read the first two or three posts, and none of the intervening 70.

 

I'll just say I have never been insulted by a single offer. Now, I can certainly laugh like the dickens when an offer falls below a certain threshold.... but been insulted? Hardly.

 

A dealer who becomes "insulted" by a simple low offer may need to reconsider how he reacts to such offers. A healthy dose of humor might help!

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I always thought an Insult is an act, remark, etc., MEANT to hurt the Feelings or Pride of another. I may be wrong. I frequently am.

 

The initial Insult need not be born by emotion. It can be born of calculated intent.

 

As a calculated intent, it would have everything to do with the monetary offer.

 

The Retort to the insult also need not be born of emotion. It could be due to calculated intent.

 

The "target" has the option of interpretation-insulting, or not, and has the option of response-emotional or not, or calculated insulting Retort.

 

I do not understand the Logic that an Insult, calculated or not, and interpreted as insulting, assists the Buyer or Seller in controlling the transaction.

 

It is likely to cause Chaos, present and, most likely, in the future.

 

Respectfully,(of course)

John Curlis

[NoTwilight]

I am actively putting together a set of half cents and passed on this half cent because it wasn't the look I was after. I did look at it carefully and considered it--which means that I looked long enough that if I had decided to buy it i would have probably been 6th in line. But I thought the coin was priced very reasonably, not at all at the high end for the date/grade. --Jerry

[jom]

Sorry, but anyone who is ever "insulted" by a simple low offer has a serious lack of a sense of humor. It's only coins, after all.

 

Oh C'mon! Feld is the King of Comedy. He couldn't possibly lack a sense of humor.

 

 

jom

[jom]

Thanks, but I disagree. I would take the opinion of CAC over mine in many, if not most cases.

 

I think this is total BS. No, I don't think you are showing false humility or anything like that. It's just too much humility and I just think you are flat out wrong. And, yes, I'm serious.

 

However, I'll admit this has as much to do with your capabilities as it does with the lack thereof of what I've seen of CAC. But that's an argument for another time....

 

jom

[bochiman]

Sorry, but anyone who is ever "insulted" by a simple low offer has a serious lack of a sense of humor. It's only coins, after all.

 

Oh C'mon! Feld is the King of Comedy. He couldn't possibly lack a sense of humor.

 

 

jom

 

 

You beat me to the comment

On the brightside of that....YOU can be the one to receive Mark's incoming email saying he does TO have a sense of humor, and attempting to make a joke

[shirohniichan]

I replied ATS that the core problem I had seen with the offer was the fact that the coin was fresh and new in the dealer's inventory, but the client asked for a price consistent with a piece that had languished for some time and needed to be moved. This is not realistic.

 

Yea, verily.

 

I'd have taken gmarguli's path and told the customer to contact me again in a month or two if the coin were still in inventory.

 

Sometimes it is about the actual coins and not the grades and/or stickers.

 

What a concept, eh? It doesn't matter if the buyer found an auction listing with a similar coin in the same grade. If the other coin wasn't as good, it has no bearing on the price of the one in question.

[Houston Investor]

A really interesting thread, super read. Would like to add the following:

 

The coin is a stunning, beautifully toned specimen. Frankly I would be determined to not take less than $3495 (if not price it at $4950 due to the super toning) for it and might could be talked down to $3400. Thats a $100 discount off Trends (and with such a quality specimen you can throw Trends, Heritage, etc away). With $2900 in it thats merely a 21% markup (on the 3495), barely enough to make a positive Variable Contribution Margin. I could care less about the bid sheets, CAC, what it went for at Heriatge, what the buyer thinks about my markup,etc. Are those numbers from Heritage kicked around here including their expensive juice?

 

I dont ever tell someone what I have in my coins anymore than I would reveal my hand at a poker game. The buyer in this example is obviously trying to force his case (with the advantage of knowing your cost) with his offer barely above cost believing the dealer will be content to take a miniscule Gross Margin of $100. I wonder if he is angling to settle at $3150? Also if the buyer really wants the coin, then why the Cheap A tactics? Let him try and find another one. I think a lot of these guys would haggle about the price of a McDouble if they could.

 

I have been in similar situations at shows (aggressive Cheap A buyers) and told them a few times "well go find one." Sooner or later I got my price. One has to stick to his guns.

 

 

[Hard Times]

A really interesting thread, super read. Would like to add the following:

 

The coin is a stunning, beautifully toned specimen. Frankly I would be determined to not take less than $3495 (if not price it at $4950 due to the super toning) for it and might could be talked down to $3400. Thats a $100 discount off Trends (and with such a quality specimen you can throw Trends, Heritage, etc away). With $2900 in it thats merely a 21% markup (on the 3495), barely enough to make a positive Variable Contribution Margin. I could care less about the bid sheets, CAC, what it went for at Heriatge, what the buyer thinks about my markup,etc. Are those numbers from Heritage kicked around here including their expensive juice?

 

I dont ever tell someone what I have in my coins anymore than I would reveal my hand at a poker game. The buyer in this example is obviously trying to force his case (with the advantage of knowing your cost) with his offer barely above cost believing the dealer will be content to take a miniscule Gross Margin of $100. I wonder if he is angling to settle at $3150? Also if the buyer really wants the coin, then why the Cheap A tactics? Let him try and find another one. I think a lot of these guys would haggle about the price of a McDouble if they could.

 

I have been in similar situations at shows and told them a few times "well go find one." Sooner or later I got my price. One has to stick to his guns.

 

 

 

Houston, we agree! And to think, Ankur started a thread to air out this laundry ATS where Mark could not respond........

[James_OldeTowne]

Hmm, I just learned through a PM that there's a thread ATS which was the impetus for this thread. Go figure! Anyhow, here's a post by "Ankur" ATS, and it's a red flag for me:

 

The dealer has $2880 into the coin. He just purchased it from Heritage at the Long Beach show.

 

If this statement is correct, then Ankur is wrong about how much the dealer has in the coin.

 

The real cost of the coin is likely something more like $2880 + partial cost of table (say $50) + partial cost of room and board (say $25) plus partial cost of travel (way $25) plus cost of his salary (yes surprise surprise, a dealer has to actually POCKET some of his profits in order to LIVE) etc. etc.

 

So let's suppose that when all is said and done, what the dealer REALLY has in the coin is more on the order of $3000.

 

Now, could a $3000 possible seem "insulting" on a coin that actually cost the dealer $3000??

 

(For the record, to me it would not be insulting. I would simply gracefully "pass". But I could certainly understand someone else viewing it as a very lousy offer . )

[noow]

Hmm, I just learned through a PM that there's a thread ATS which was the impetus for this thread. Go figure! Anyhow, here's a post by "Ankur" ATS, and it's a red flag for me:

 

The dealer has $2880 into the coin. He just purchased it from Heritage at the Long Beach show.

 

If this statement is correct, then Ankur is wrong about how much the dealer has in the coin.

 

The real cost of the coin is likely something more like $2880 + partial cost of table (say $50) + partial cost of room and board (say $25) plus partial cost of travel (way $25) plus cost of his salary (yes surprise surprise, a dealer has to actually POCKET some of his profits in order to LIVE) etc. etc.

 

So let's suppose that when all is said and done, what the dealer REALLY has in the coin is more on the order of $3000.

 

Now, could a $3000 possible seem "insulting" on a coin that actually cost the dealer $3000??

 

(For the record, to me it would not be insulting. I would simply gracefully "pass". But I could certainly understand someone else viewing it as a very lousy offer . )

That is a very important point.

[James_OldeTowne]

Lord Almighty I must be DENSE.

 

I have now read about 10 pages ATS... much to my overall regret, since it's mostly fluff and worthless discourse. But it took me that long to realize that we are discussing our own Mark Feld's coin.

 

So I may have inadvertently insulted him myself by implying that he has no sense of humor, when of course we know that he does. I failed to look at it from someone else's point of view, and Yes, I can see where he would be "insulted".

 

As I showed in my previous post, it is only the most insensitive and foolish buyer who somehow believes that what a coin closed at in an auction is somehow what the dealer "has into it". When you add in overhead, travel, food, lodging, cost of advertising, salary, the cost of a website, etc., it is VERY EASY to tack on 10%.... just to break even.

 

To reiterate, the dealer most likely has at least $3000 "into the coin", NOT "$2880". And in that regard, $3000, while not an insulting offer to me personally, is at best a frivolous offer, and at worst, downright silly.