Dealers: What do you think drives "dreamer" buyers?

[shirohniichan]

How quickly can you spot someone who purports to be a buyer but who's really a dreamer? What drives them to waste your time? Just the desire to feel important? Or are they really deluding themselves?

 

Here's an example. Say you have a customer who says he's looking for a 1908-S cent for his type collection and he wants you to give him your "best price" on the MS64 RD you have. Before you give him a price he says he can get an "MS63" example for far less than what you were originally asking. You point out that if he's comparing an uncertified MS63 RB to your certified 64 RD, yours has considerable advantages and that's why it's more than double the asking price for the other. You suggest that if he's looking for a particular price point you can see what else you have that may work better for him, and he responds with "I can afford to get an MS66 RD if I wanted, but I just want to see where you'll be on this coin." When you quote him he objects, "But I can get that raw MS63 RB for less than half the price of your coin! I don't want to spend more than $500. I only want it for my type set, so I'll consider an '09-S for the same price."

 

Are they dumb enough to think you'd sell a nice-looking certified '08-S in MS64 RD for the same price as a raw coin in a lower grade or that you'd sell a similar '09-S for the same price as the '08-S? Or are such "buyers" usually just guys who like to pretend they're going to buy?

 

This may be an extreme example, but I'm sure you can remember similar customers from the past.

[Chris1976]

I can't give you a view point as a coin dealer, but it does go along the same lines as alot of people that used to come into the autoparts store I used to work in. They come in talking like they can afford the best that they can find and at times will even specifically say "I want the best possible quality", then when you tell them the price they respond with something along the lines of "well I can get the same part by "X' brand at half of that". So you spend the time to explain to them that when they are comparing part A to competitor part B, they are in actuality two different ends of the spectrum as far as price vs. quality.

 

A few days later the same customer comes back asking for the same part with the same exact story. After about the 3rd time they finally just buy the cheaper item instead of a quality item. Personaly, I think its simply that they have a set price range that they are looking to spend (even if its unreasonable for what they are looking for) and feel that by making it look like price is no option, makes them feel better by putting forth the image of how they can just toss down cash for anything they want. Even if it is far from the truth.

 

Most of the time you, if you have never seen this person before, you wouldnt know if they could or could not afford what they are looking for. But you can get a rough idea of their limitations by looking at the other items they are buying. Are the other items quality items or are they just good enough to fill a void and thats about all?

 

-Chris#2

[michael]

oh and as a side note i just noticed it is only for dealer replies and i am NOT a dealer so i deleted my posting

[Walkerfan]

I had and still have to this day a friend who was so CHEAP that he would rarely buy ANYTHING. Money was his god and he saved every dime. When we were out he would spend HOURS B.S.ing with salespeople and wasting their time. I would get very bored and embarrased. I think that he just enjoyed B.S.ing and that this was his silly little way of getting to learn alot about different things he was interested in from the salespeople without having to spend the money.....he was VERY inquisitive and a little crazy, too.

[Oldtrader3]

I had a father-in-law who did that. He always said that he was studying human nature but he seldom pulled his wallet out unless he found a person that would really give him a good deal. In retrospect, I think that he was just finding ways to talk to people whom he normally wouldn't in everyday life.

 

He was pretty tight with his money and was a little different personality also.

[Walkerfan]

I had a father-in-law who did that. He always said that he was studying human nature but he seldom pulled his wallet out unless he found a person that would really give him a good deal. In rtrospect, I think that he was just finding ways to talk to people whom he normally wouldn't in everyday life.

 

He was pretty tight with his money and was a little different personality also.

 

That's it, exactly! It was a way for him to socialize with new people who had similar interests. You hit the nail on the head!

[shirohniichan]

I had and still have to this day a friend who was so CHEAP that he would rarely buy ANYTHING. Money was his god and he saved every dime. When we were out he would spend HOURS B.S.ing with salespeople and wasting their time. I would get very bored and embarrased. I think that he just enjoyed B.S.ing and that this was his silly little way of getting to learn alot about different things he was interested in from the salespeople without having to spend the money.....he was VERY inquisitive and a little crazy, too.

 

I've heard the Talmud teaches that to ask a merchant the price of his wares without any intention of buying is stealing, and I agree. If you want to kibitz, at least tell the dealer you're not buying anything today and let him decide if he wants to spend his time with you.

 

Apparent self-delusion must be a masterbatory exercise in trying to make oneself feel better or an attempt to deceive dealers to get free information. It's pathetic.

 

Some who do this probably think it makes them look like "serious" collectors while all it does it show off their ignorance or stupidity.

[Houston Investor]

Dreamer Buyers (or Cheap A's or tire kickers as many call them) are not buyers in any realistic sense unless its a rip or steal. In addition many of them don't have the money anyhow. I have had them come to my table in pairs where one is a dealer representing a customer. When their BS about price being too high starts (or the dealer will not make a decent offer), its simply time for them to leave. "Why dont your go find one" or "perhaps you should shop around" speeds the process of ridding them from my table. There is no use getting bent out of shape about it. Ebay allows one to simply deselect these buyers on the BIN make offer by having offers below a certain amount automatically rejected.

 

At shows there are 3 types of buyers: those who are broke, those who have money but wont pay the money, and those who have money and will pay the money. Buyers from the third group will make an offer if they may not agree with the price. The more expreinced ones will lay their money on the table while they make the offer. The first two groups are all about BS sort of like what they call SS on the tuscl.net website (my other hobby). I dont get insulted by the tirekickers, etc. just take what they say for its entertainment value and send them away. Sometimes I will solicit these guys if they have something to sell me at that (sheet).

 

There are also dealers who will come by ones table and try to rip / low ball you by saying "these are only trading for xx" Knowing this is like SS (see above) I simply stuff them in the backfield and say "do you have one you will sell me for that?" Or potential customers who try to use maniuplation "Dealer X only has them for that." Again this is like SS as I am at the show to buy and sell at my price so what or who dealer X is or what he does is a moot issue for me. When I first started taking tables at shows in the Houston area in 1990 there was one rather obnoxous tall dark haired fellow in glasses who always pulled this stunt. It gave the show a rather nasty flavor and he disappeard after a coupla years. I recall on one occasion where he pulled out a CDN citing me bid and I told hem "send them a check then." I always picture him moving to Cali or somewhere and posting ATS .

 

I try to treat all three groups politely at shows and during slow periods will even visit with the first two types to see what kinda coins they really collect. As a businessman, its the third group that is critical for success at a show.

 

 

 

 

[shirohniichan]

All good points, Derek.

 

It's the one who won't leave that is the problem. You give it the old college try by offering him something in his price range and he refuses, going back to the coin that is far beyond his price range. You show him the sheet price or any other recognized pricing guide. You try to get him on his way with, "OK, I see my pricing is toohigh for what you are looking for, so see what others have." Still he persists in his assertion that it's not the price, "it's the way you got to that number." This leads you back to the start of the circle about pricing (the Graysheet, Heritage auction results and other pricing you've covered a while back). Again you try to get him to move on by saying there's no reasonable way for him to buy a certified coin that trades for around $1,500 for the $500 price range he said he's looking in. You again decline his weak offer of "Well, if you could get it to the $625 range I might consider it" and fend off his claim that he can get one in a lower grade for $500, but he still stands there asking what's the best you can do. Even after you tell him there's nothing left to discuss about that particular item he returns to his insistence that it's not the price but how you got to the price that counts.

 

You can ignore him and start talking to the next guy in line, but the nudnik will probably start making a scene.

[Dudley the 1st]

How quickly can you spot someone who purports to be a buyer but who's really a dreamer? What drives them to waste your time? Just the desire to feel important? Or are they really deluding themselves?

 

Here's an example. Say you have a customer who says he's looking for a 1908-S cent for his type collection and he wants you to give him your "best price" on the MS64 RD you have. Before you give him a price he says he can get an "MS63" example for far less than what you were originally asking. You point out that if he's comparing an uncertified MS63 RB to your certified 64 RD, yours has considerable advantages and that's why it's more than double the asking price for the other. You suggest that if he's looking for a particular price point you can see what else you have that may work better for him, and he responds with "I can afford to get an MS66 RD if I wanted, but I just want to see where you'll be on this coin." When you quote him he objects, "But I can get that raw MS63 RB for less than half the price of your coin! I don't want to spend more than $500. I only want it for my type set, so I'll consider an '09-S for the same price."

 

Are they dumb enough to think you'd sell a nice-looking certified '08-S in MS64 RD for the same price as a raw coin in a lower grade or that you'd sell a similar '09-S for the same price as the '08-S? Or are such "buyers" usually just guys who like to pretend they're going to buy?

 

This may be an extreme example, but I'm sure you can remember similar customers from the past.

 

Well, one positive way of dealing with this, is to take it as an opportunity to educate your potential buyer. I'd rather answer any and all questions about the items I'm selling, to the best of my ability, than to assume they as seasoned a collector as you may be. One should not assume that any buyer knows what you know about the collectible you are attempting to sell. It's an opportunity to teach and perhaps learn about the business of marketing collectibles. I for one feel much better at the prospect of being able to provide this potential buyer, with the substantiated facts.

 

Than of course, you can always consign your " items " to companies who's customer base have more of an astute knowledge in the particular field of collectible Coins.

[HiHoAudio]

I had and still have to this day a friend who was so CHEAP that he would rarely buy ANYTHING.

 

I married his sister...

[Walkerfan]

I had and still have to this day a friend who was so CHEAP that he would rarely buy ANYTHING.

 

I married his sister...

 

I feel for you bro'. He had a sister and she was a material girl, too, just not quite as obnoxious!

[jom]

You can ignore him and start talking to the next guy in line, but the nudnik will probably start making a scene.

 

Seems to me that you've had experience with this kind of thing in your business....

 

jom

[Oldtrader3]

I generally have not found the techniques of badgering sellers on price to work very well, in fact, pretty much the opposite. I can not see where there is any advantage in angering the dealer before you have even made up your mind to buy the coin.

 

Sometimes, I will spontaneously buy a coin on the spot, if I need it, it is a nice example and the price seems fair. Most of the time, I walk the show for awhile to get a feel for what material is available, what is there that I need and what prices are for that venue. Usually, if I find something initially, I will ask to look at the coin and ask for a price from the dealer. Then, thank the dealer for his time and say that I am still looking, compliment the coin and say that I will probably be back. Then I make note of the item, price and the table.

 

This gives me time to check the sheet on the coin and prioritise what I have found and decide what I want to make offers on. So, I guess that this makes me look like a tire kicker to many dealers. However, I am semi-serious before I even ask to see the coin and the price. If I return a second time and still like the coin, I will make a serious offer, based on what the dealer asked for the coin. No tire kicking on the second inquiry. Just my way of handling shows.

[shirohniichan]

If I return a second time and still like the coin, I will make a serious offer, based on what the dealer asked for the coin. No tire kicking on the second inquiry. Just my way of handling shows.

 

You sound like a rational person. The people I deal with pretend to be rational, but they are anything but.

 

Here's an example of the lunacy:

 

Schnorer: "How much are you asking for that coin?"

Dealer: "$1,500."

S: "What is Greysheet on it?"

D: "Sheet is $1,500."

S: "My dealer friends say they never buy anything for more than 70% of Greysheet prices."

D: "You'll end up with a lot of subpar coins doing that. Look at this one and tell me if you don't think it is attractive and strong for the grade."

S: "Well, I can get one from another dealer for $500."

D: "One like this, in this grade?!"

S: "It's not exactly the same grade, but it's close enough for me."

D: "To each his own. If you can't appreciate the superiority of this coin, you should buy what makes sense to you. If your target is $500, I have another in a lower grade that's in that range."

S: "Price isn't the issue. What I'm interested in is how you got to that price. I could afford a $5,000 coin if I wanted it."

D: "I price according to the market value of the coin in question. I buy coins that are priced fairly for the condition, and I mark them up to support my business. Check around and you'll see my price is quite reasonable."

S: "What's the absolute lowest price you'll take for it?"

D: "I wouldn't take any less than $1,400 for it."

S: "Well, I can still get that other one for only $500."

D: "Like I said, if you like that coin and it makes sense to you, by all means go and buy it."

S: "What is Greysheet on this one?"

[and back into the circle]

 

The same works in the car biz and many other retail businesses.

[Walkerfan]

This 'Schnorer' is absurd, since his offer is not even debatable. No dealer (or collector) in their right mind would sell a coin for one third of Greysheet (especially one of decent quality)! This is completely absurd and not even realistic. I think that I would probably have told this Schnorer that he is NOT EVEN CLOSE and that he should look elsewhere but that you appreciate his (ridiculous) offer (even if you don't). I would not waste my time with him but I would be polite about it.

 

I have seen the opposite happen at shows. I was at a show about a year and a half ago and a guy had a raw coin (AU 58; looked cleaned, too) worth about 200 bucks and he was asking 3000 for it (ms 64 certified price)! Guys like that are completely dangerous to the uninformed, as far as I'm concerned. At first, I was being nice and then he got loud and obnoxious, so I really let him have it and told him what a low grade piece of junk it was and that I hoped no one was that foolish to even consider buying it. I told him that only a complete insufficiently_thoughtful_person would buy it and that it was nowhere near a 64. It was, in fact, not even uncirculated. Then I walked away. That is a different scenario but it is still ignorance, or worse, it is an attempt at extreme deception. I saw another dealer asking 1000 ABOVE Grey Sheet ASK (33% markup) for a coin and I also told him that he was very overpriced in his offering. He said "Just try to find this date" and I replied "Have you ever heard of the internet?? They are VERY available." This coin was average to above average for the grade but not exceptional and it would NEVER be worth the premium that he was asking for it. It's a free country. He could've 'asked' $50,000 for it but that doesn't mean he would get it and it would really be a waste of EVERYONE's time and would've made him look quite silly. I was nicer to him, since he was not as rude as the other crook.

 

I guess that it works both ways.

 

I've been doing this for a long time and I usually just ignore people such as these (schnorer buyer & bogus dealer). I really have no time to waste on their BS. It really does no one any good.

 

[Oldtrader3]

When ever I hear "my friend says", I start looking for the exit. That statement is 100% a preface to blowing smoke in the nether regions.

 

EBay is always the venue that surprises me for the high prices that some people are asking for many coins.

[Comicsarefun]

Shiro, it sounds like you are a little new to this game...

 

Try some of the classic dealer price responses:

 

1. That coin took me a long time to find, and I had to pay $1200 for it. There is no way I will take under $1400.

 

2. I love that coin, I priced it high becasue I will have a hard time finding another one. I don't care if it sells.

 

3. No way I can go $600 on that coin, I have a standing offer from another dealer for $1200.

 

I realize that none of these statments are necessarily "true", but when it comes to clearing out problem people from your table, you need a full list of replies. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about deception concerning the product, that is very low, but I see no way these responses compromise dealer integrity.

[TomB]

I haven't had too many people entrench themselves in this line of thinking so deeply as to make them unpleasant to deal with, but I have definitely run into a number of folks who might not be realistic.

 

There have been a few collectors who have pulled the "it's listed in Greysheet at..." bit on me and my response has always been to tell them to buy the coin from the Greysheet. Invariably they tell me they can't buy coins through the Greysheet and I simply answer "Exactly." It has always worked and these conversations have generally gone very well with folks often staying and talking longer while even purchasing items from time to time. At one show I had a wonderful RE half in EF45 that someone repeatedly attempted to chisel me lower on in terms of the price until I finally pulled the coin from the case and put it in my bag. Upon the chiseler's return he scanned for the coin over and over again before finally asking about the piece and I told him I had sold it. He looked like someone kicked his puppy. I ended up selling the coin at my price at the next show.

 

In my years with a table and/or a website, there has only been one person who was a repeat tire kicker with no hope of a sale. This fellow would come to my table and ask to see the raw, better date WQs from any albums I had. I would very carefully remove the coins from the album and put them over a velvet tray. He would pretend to inspect them for quite a while, though I believe he had no clue what he was looking at, and then ask for a price. It always went the same way; I would quote a realistic price (MS64 bid for a coin that was MS64) and then he would ask what bid was for an MS63 upon which he would counter my price with the MS63 bid price. This happened for perhaps three shows in a row and he really wasted my time because he was not quick with any step of the process. Finally, at the fourth show, I told him that I had nothing that would interest him even though he asked to see those WQs again-I just couldn't justify the possible injury to the coins and the soaking up of my time and attention by someone who was not going to buy unless I lost money.

[Dudley the 1st]

For all these reasons stated here and some that haven't, there is no substitute for taking time to develop a mutually respectful relationship with a dealer. Trying to get over on either party, buyer or seller is nothing short of self-deception.

[DaveG]

It sounds to me like TomB has the most effective (and least confrontational) way of dealing with these folks who are just looking to waste a dealer's time.

[shirohniichan]

Shiro, it sounds like you are a little new to this game...

 

Try some of the classic dealer price responses:

 

1. That coin took me a long time to find, and I had to pay $1200 for it. There is no way I will take under $1400.

 

2. I love that coin, I priced it high becasue I will have a hard time finding another one. I don't care if it sells.

 

3. No way I can go $600 on that coin, I have a standing offer from another dealer for $1200.

 

I realize that none of these statments are necessarily "true", but when it comes to clearing out problem people from your table, you need a full list of replies. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about deception concerning the product, that is very low, but I see no way these responses compromise dealer integrity.

 

I'm strictly a buyer now (and barely that), so I'm used to those dealer responses. Even my brief stint on the other side of the table taught me some manners, though. If a dealer makes such claims, I walk away. I don't continually pester him with allegedly sage advice from my expert friend, try to talk down the coin (e.g. "Those PCGS graders must have been drunk that day they gave this POS an MS65"), or start quoting the Bluesheet.

 

One of my favorite responses when asking the grade of a coin was, "The grade's $850-- that's what it grades!"

[shirohniichan]

When we buy coins, how many of us show open contempt for dealers (i.e. ones we don't even know)?

 

Here are a couple of things I've overheard:

 

"There's no way I'll trade coins. You'd just try to turn around and sell it for more money!"

 

"You won't switch coins when I come back for it, will you?"

 

If you have such a low opinion of a particular dealer, don't buy from him. If you hold all dealers in contempt, maybe you'd do better buying only from fellow collectors and assuming they don't have a profit motive.

 

If I don't trust certain dealers, I stay away from them.