1902 S redfield morgan grade?

[nk1nk]

thoughts on grade, and what is going on with the reverse?

[zboyle04]

i hope those scratches on the reverse are on the case

[James_OldeTowne]

Those are classic roller marks, very common for San Francisco coins of the era, though these are more prominent than usual. I like this coin very much, which is unusual for me, since I'm not a big fan of Redfield toning. My guess is MS-61.

[mtnstyne]

MS63 obverse

 

reverse

 

I'll wait and see what the experts say about those scratches, don't think it is roller marks or they would have been stamped out with the details of the eagle, lettering, etc...

[Arizonadesertrat]

Does not look like roller marks to me---more like damage from something like a counting machine.

[BillJones]

Does not look like roller marks to me---more like damage from something like a counting machine.

 

BINGO!

 

When the Redfield dollars were discovered some duffus or group of duffuses decided that they could save some time and run the coins through a counting machine. The results are what you see here. This was reported in the coin newspapers and literature at the time.

 

There is a slight chance that it's on the case, but I doubt it. If when you move the case from side to side and the marks "move" on the coin, it's on the case. Otherwise those are counting machine marks, and if they are, the coin would be a "no grade" or "genuine" holder piece.

[relicsncoins]

Does not look like roller marks to me---more like damage from something like a counting machine.

 

BINGO!

 

When the Redfield dollars were discovered some duffus or group of duffuses decided that they could save some time and run the coins through a counting machine. The results are what you see here. This was reported in the coin newspapers and literature at the time.

 

There is a slight chance that it's on the case, but I doubt it. If when you move the case from side to side and the marks "move" on the coin, it's on the case. Otherwise those are counting machine marks, and if they are, the coin would be a "no grade" or "genuine" holder piece.

 

I can't imagine a scenario where it's on the case, as the lines stop a the edge of the coin.

[johnny9434]

omg, that reverse. i sure do hope thats on the case

[James_OldeTowne]

Roller marks are common for certain issues (such as this one), and result from being on the planchet (as it is rolled out into sheets, and subsequently punched out of the sheet for striking), and not effaced by the strike.

 

Here are some more examples:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kurtdog]

Technically the old girl has her foot in the MS-64 door but she isn't quite getting in there. Market-wise, I'll trust NGC to determine that. I'll also agree those lines on the reverse were on the planchet before she was born.

[BillJones]

Technically the old girl has her foot in the MS-64 door but she isn't quite getting in there. Market-wise, I'll trust NGC to determine that. I'll also agree those lines on the reverse were on the planchet before she was born.

 

I don't think so. I see shiney metal at the bottom of those scratches.

 

Old Mr. Redfield was a hoarder who didn't like banks and the like. He had something over 400,000 silver dollars in his basement, and the coins were mistreated by one of the early buyers. At least some of them were run through a counting machine.

[nk1nk]

I appreciate the input thus far. This coin is at a local auction this weekend, so I have not seen it in hand, just the pictures. I agree the marks are not on the holder.

 

I have been doing some research today and Im still not sure if they are roller marks or counting machine marks, Im leaning towards roller marks, because I've seen pictures of roller marks of coins that do resemble these (including the ones James provided).

 

As far as counting machine marks, I haven't seen any this large, it must have been one helluva machine. does anyone have pictures of a details graded wheel marks coin with marks this large?

 

thanks for the input, Nick

[James_OldeTowne]

I don't think so. I see shiney metal at the bottom of those scratches.

Bill, I'm pretty sure it's an imaging anomaly, as I've made the same mistake myself. If the light is placed perpendicular to the direction of the roller marks, they completely jump off the coin and look very exaggerated. On the other hand, placing the light such that it shines in parallel with the roller marks makes the invisible. The proper solution is to compromise the lighting angle so that they show, but are not unfairly exaggerated.

[Oldtrader3]

Looks as though some of LeVere Redfield's famous peach juice got on this one on the obverse!

[mtnstyne]

When you get to examine the coin in hand take a look at where the "marks" meet the toned areas of the coin and see if that tells you anything. If the toning is constant through the "marks" then I would agree it is roller marks, if the "marks" cut through the toning then it is obviously something else.

[JOBESSI]

I posted a 1894-s Morgan for grading earlier that had similar marks on the obv. cheek area. A similar debate insued. Ultimately, NGC graded it at a nice MS64.

In your case, I haven't seen too many Redfield's where NGC agreed with the "MS65" that was already stamped on there. I would say MS63 would be the most likely grade this coin would receive, and a MS64 on a good day...all depending on those marks. At auction, I would be wary of a bidding war, and be certain of those marks before getting in the action. If you are still unsure, I'd say $300 is a safe max.