Keeping MS70 'Coin Cleaner' in Perspective

[James_OldeTowne]

Hi Folks,

That is the point, it is all opinion and not based on the scientific method of obtaining observations, interpreting them, then following up with further tests, etc. I did some experiments, and MS70 did NOT REACT WITH COPPER METAL as shown in my thread presenting the results of the experiments. Look at the results again and tell me I am wrong, I am okay with that, but show me where I am wrong with this interpretation. It is possible that MS70 does react with something ON copper surfaces sometimes, but it simply does not REACT WITH COPPER METAL. Tom if what you say is correct, write me an equation, word on the street is you have a PhD so you can probably do that.

 

There are too many of these old wives tales going around numismatics, this is probably one of them. If not, then prove it is all I am saying, because opinions are just that, proof is better.

 

Best, HT

I'm not sure I recall anyone claming that MS70 reacts with "COPPER METAL". The issue is whether or not it reacts or interacts with copper-oxide to produce a blue color. I think anyone who has played with MS70 knows that it does nothing to a fully red cent that hasn't oxidized.

 

However, the surface of a brown cent is covered with copper-oxide, and rest assured that application of MS-70 will turn it blue.

 

And if a cent is red/brown, then the MS70 will turn only the brown areas blue, and leave the red areas red.

[jgrinz]

All I say , as no chemist mind you , if it smells like ammonia , and cleans like ammonia , and reacts to copper as dscribed ... its ammonia or based on ammonia.

 

Just be careful with its usage is all I am saying ... )

 

Carry on my fine folk !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cwtripp]

Just for everyone's knowledge MS70 contains the following:

 

ETHANOL, 2-BUTOXY PEL: 25 PPM

CAS #: 111-76-2 TLV: 25 PPM

 

POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE, LIQUID PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED

CAS #: 1310-58-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED

 

SODIUM GLUCONATE PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED

CAS #: 527-07-1 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED

 

SULFONATED SODIUM SALTS PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED

CAS #: 147732-60-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED

 

INERT MATERIAL PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED

CAS #: 7732-18-5 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED

 

[Hard Times]

I am not stating that the following is happening, but copper metal plus an ammonia solution in air can give the following-

 

4Cu + O(2) → 2Cu(2)O

 

Exposure to ammonia solutions: 2Cu(2)O + 4NH(3) → 2[Cu(NH(3))(2)]+ + O(2)

 

Further exposure to air (approximately 21% volume O(2) and 78% volume N(2)): [Cu(NH(3))(4)(H2O)(2)]2+

 

The above is a blue color.

 

Awesome thanks for that TomB. I actually asked my professor to do it for me today but he is writing his dissertation and I have 6 exams to study for. After seeing the actual formula I am pretty confident I wouldn't have been able to write that. My Chemistry class went way too fast so it was more cramming than learning.

 

Tom,

This is the first time I have seen this equation, it is interesting, and possibly testable. My contention is that the metallic blue, violet and red toning on copper before and after using MS70 is a copper sulfide, whereas your equation suggests a copper ammonium hydrate with no sulfur present. My guess is the latter will not produce metallic luster, but again, there may be a way to test this. Especially now that we have the ingredients (thanks!) we know that there is stuff in MS70 that could possibly react with copper or remove patina, so stay tuned....

 

Best, HT

[Hard Times]

 

 

ETHANOL, 2-BUTOXY PEL: 25 PPM

CAS #: 111-76-2 TLV: 25 PPM

 

2-Butoxyethanol is an organic solvent with the formula BuOC2H4OH (Bu = CH3CH2CH2CH2). It is a colorless liquid with a sweet, ether-like odour. It is a butyl ether of ethylene glycol. It is a relatively nonvolatile, inexpensive solvent with modest surfactant properties.

 

 

POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE, LIQUID PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED

CAS #: 1310-58-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Potassium hydroxide is an inorganic compound with the formula KOH, commonly called caustic potash. KOH is noteworthy as the precursor to most soft and liquid soaps as well as numerous potassium-containing chemicals.

 

SODIUM GLUCONATE PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED

CAS #: 527-07-1 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED

 

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Sodium gluconate is a compound with formula NaC6H11O7. It is the sodium salt of gluconic acid. It has E number E576. Sodium gluconate is widely used in textile dyeing, printing and metal surface water treatment, chelating agent, steel surface cleaning agent, cleaning agent for glass bottle,chelating agent for cement, plating and alumina dyeing industries.

 

SULFONATED SODIUM SALTS PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED

CAS #: 147732-60-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED

 

A salt or ester of sulfonic acid. What I am seeing is that this compound should react with organic materials or possibly neutralize acidic compounds on the surfaces. Don't know for sure.

 

From what I can tell from their properties, these are cleaning agents, that will also oxidize the surface material on a metal which will remove this material, and there seems to be substances in MS70 that reacts with organic material to break it down and remove it. Does anyone else know what these chemical do when used as cleaning agents?

 

Best, HT

[Hard Times]

BTW, there seems to be no ammonia compounds present in MS70 that would be consistent with a reaction proposed above.

 

Best, HT

[Hard Times]

Hi Folks,

That is the point, it is all opinion and not based on the scientific method of obtaining observations, interpreting them, then following up with further tests, etc. I did some experiments, and MS70 did NOT REACT WITH COPPER METAL as shown in my thread presenting the results of the experiments. Look at the results again and tell me I am wrong, I am okay with that, but show me where I am wrong with this interpretation. It is possible that MS70 does react with something ON copper surfaces sometimes, but it simply does not REACT WITH COPPER METAL. Tom if what you say is correct, write me an equation, word on the street is you have a PhD so you can probably do that.

 

There are too many of these old wives tales going around numismatics, this is probably one of them. If not, then prove it is all I am saying, because opinions are just that, proof is better.

 

Best, HT

I'm not sure I recall anyone claming that MS70 reacts with "COPPER METAL". The issue is whether or not it reacts or interacts with copper-oxide to produce a blue color. I think anyone who has played with MS70 knows that it does nothing to a fully red cent that hasn't oxidized.

 

However, the surface of a brown cent is covered with copper-oxide, and rest assured that application of MS-70 will turn it blue.

 

And if a cent is red/brown, then the MS70 will turn only the brown areas blue, and leave the red areas red.

 

Sorry for the many replies to this thread but the info on what MS70 is has got me to thinking about the process.

 

Copper oxide is black, not brown:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper%28II%29_oxide

 

Also this article states that:

 

It reacts with concentrated alkali to form the corresponding cuprate salts:

 

2 XOH + CuO + H2O → X2[Cu(OH)4]

 

Substitute the alkalis in MS70 - Na and K in to the 'X' in the formula.

 

You get:

 

Na2[Cu(OH4]

 

or K2[Cu(OH)4]

 

These should be the predictive compounds if MS70 is reacting with copper oxide to produce cuprate salts. Such compounds of copper are blue and green and do not have metallic lusters - see the green on brass statues for example (see Statue of Liberty). What is observed on copper is red-blue-violet toning with metallic luster typical of sulfides. So I don't think this is what is happening.

 

What is patina on copper?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patina

 

Looks like it can be a whole bunch of different compounds, but the brown patination appears to be sulfur based according to this article. So can we write an equation with some MS70 compound that reacts with the copper-sulfur compounds in the brown patina that would produce the vivid sulfide-looking toning? That could be possible. That would potentially be an argument for MS70 really turning copper blue-violet-red, as clearly as what James says above, the color is always associated to where the brown patina was, this is shown over and over again. Hmm.....

 

Best, HT

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Toning has nothing at all to do with sulfur, sulfide, sulfate, or any other sulfur type compound. It has everything to do with thin film interference - the presence of a film on the surface of a coin produces a light wave interaction that appears to produce color. It can be any compound at all - as long as it is thin enough to produce thin film interference it will appear to have a color. Silver sulfide, the most easily understandable and most common compound on silver coins, is actually dark brown or black when it is thick enough (its the same compound that produces brown or black tarnish on silverware). So, the compounds that are created are not important - any of a thousand different compounds could produce a layer thin enough to produce thin film interference and cause color on a coin.

 

If you want to know more about the chemistry of copper coins, I suggest you contact BadThad - he invented Verdi-Gone (to remove verdigris from copper coins) and was at one time working on a very exhaustive study of the compounds that form on copper coins.

[WingedLiberty1]

So would a dip in MS70 automatically cause an AT designation from the TPGs?

[coinman1794]

Hi Folks,

That is the point, it is all opinion and not based on the scientific method of obtaining observations, interpreting them, then following up with further tests, etc. I did some experiments, and MS70 did NOT REACT WITH COPPER METAL as shown in my thread presenting the results of the experiments. Look at the results again and tell me I am wrong, I am okay with that, but show me where I am wrong with this interpretation. It is possible that MS70 does react with something ON copper surfaces sometimes, but it simply does not REACT WITH COPPER METAL. Tom if what you say is correct, write me an equation, word on the street is you have a PhD so you can probably do that.

 

There are too many of these old wives tales going around numismatics, this is probably one of them. If not, then prove it is all I am saying, because opinions are just that, proof is better.

 

Best, HT

I'm not sure I recall anyone claming that MS70 reacts with "COPPER METAL". The issue is whether or not it reacts or interacts with copper-oxide to produce a blue color. I think anyone who has played with MS70 knows that it does nothing to a fully red cent that hasn't oxidized.

 

However, the surface of a brown cent is covered with copper-oxide, and rest assured that application of MS-70 will turn it blue.

 

And if a cent is red/brown, then the MS70 will turn only the brown areas blue, and leave the red areas red.

 

100% correct, James (thumbs u

[e1cnr]

I have used it on Jefferson war nickels. A few times I lost color.