PCGS and MS70

[RGT]

Now that I have your attention, I want to point out that this is not about copper, so you can put your flame throwers away.

 

A few years ago I picked up a 1935 Peace dollar on eBay in an old green label PCI holder graded MS65. Many of the earlier PCI graded coins were graded accurately and I have even found some undergraded coins in them. Still, I bid conservatively and won the coin at an MS64 price.

 

In hand the coin looked very nice and deserving of the grade. I was concerned over a couple of things though. On the reverse there was a small scuff well hidden in the rock that the eagle stands on. Also, on the obverse was a reed mark in Liberty's neck. Otherwise the coin was very clean.

 

A while back I won a free PMG grading certificate from the Numisma-Quest and I was unsure what to do with it. I finally asked my local dealer if he could use it in exchange for a coin grading, which he agreed to. I decided to crack this Peace dollar out and send it in to PCGS. The dealer was a bit concerned that the reed mark might limit the grade but did not seem concerned at all about the mark on the reverse.

 

Well, I got the coin back late last year as Genuine: Altered Surfaces. It looked like a nice original coin to me but it did have some light hazing. The dealer said that the hazing was likely the issue and he didn't really notice it before. I decided that the coin was not worth much in that holder so I cracked it out to try to remove the haze. My first attempt was to soak it in acetone. Unfortunately the acetone seemed to do nothing at all. I don't own any coin dip but I did buy a bottle of MS70 a few years ago. So I carfully dabbed MS70 on both sides of the coin and let it sit for a minute or two then rinsed. The MS70 did the job and took the haze right off. It also left the coin with the characteristic overly bright look.

 

I wasn't sure if PCGS would like a coin that bright but I didn't know what to do about it. When I took it back to the dealer he even commented about the bright look but noted that I did get the haze off without adding any hairlines so he sent it in for me.

 

My expectations were that the coin would receive the MS65 grade or at least get an MS64+. Even the straight MS64 would have probably not devalued the coin from what it had in the PCI holder.

 

I picked up the coin yesterday in it's new PCGS MS65 holder. I guess PCGS liked the bright look and in the plastic it doesn't look quite as blinding as it did before. I think I liked the coin as well or better with the original haze on it, but I can live with more than doubling it's value.

[SouthFlorida guy]

 

Now that I have your attention, I want to point out that this is not about copper, so you can put your flame throwers away.

 

 

 

And congrats on your gamble!

[James_OldeTowne]

Your story is a microcosm of one thing that is wrong with PCGS grading. Whether some of us like it or not, they reward the "bright is best" philosophy, and millions of coins (yes, I'd guess millions) have been dippy-doo'd as a result.

 

Of course, it's possible that the haze you saw on your peace dollar really was a problem, but if it was something acetone didn't touch, then it most likely was something that should have been acceptable.

 

Overall, I don't really mind white peace dollars, but the preference for dipped out coins carries over to too many series, way too often.

[123cents]

Interesting story and Congrats on the MS-65 grading.

[Hard Times]

Your story is a microcosm of one thing that is wrong with PCGS grading. Whether some of us like it or not, they reward the "bright is best" philosophy, and millions of coins (yes, I'd guess millions) have been dippy-doo'd as a result.

 

Of course, it's possible that the haze you saw on your peace dollar really was a problem, but if it was something acetone didn't touch, then it most likely was something that should have been acceptable.

 

Overall, I don't really mind white peace dollars, but the preference for dipped out coins carries over to too many series, way too often.

 

James, you are more correct than you suggest in your post, at least for silver and gold. Most of these haven't been just dipped, they have gone through many dip cycles. There probably are not very many 'original' AU and MS coins left in most 19th century series with the exception of Morgans that were kept isolated from the atmosphere as we know for over a century. However, what the OP is discussing is using a detergent (pH=14) to remove haze, not an acid dip (pH <7) which acts to dissolve oxide and sulfide build up on the surface to bring them back to blast white for silver. IMHO, I don't think this is the same thing.

 

But as you know, specimens with original skins, or at least that haven't been recently acid dipped back to blast white, are now in vogue and perceptions change. Let's see if the pendulum swings back in a decade or so where blast white is again preferred. Having said that, like many, I will buy blast white examples from the 19th century if their luster isn't 'dipped out' from far too many dips. But I also strive to find the 'original' looking coins also.

[TonerGuy]

No offense to RGT and I hope he doesnt take offense but why do we as a hobby reward doctoring ?

 

If I had come onto the boards and talked about the same coin but added that instead of dipping off the haze I carefully added some original looking toning that concealed the reed mark and and the reverse mark and got it into a PCGS 65 slab I would be strung up as a coin doctor and the scourge of the industry.

 

Take some original skin off a coin and Wahhhhoooo ! Winner winner chicken dinner !

 

Again, I blame the TPGs for this one not RGT to be clear.

[Vistula-migration]

Wow, I believe you have made my point with post, ASE Struck thru. PCGS (professional grading services) are not supposed to accept regular grade anything that's been cleaned.

Let alone an ASE MS69 with a hole on the reverse.

[Keigwin]

Wow, I believe you have made my point with post, ASE Struck thru. PCGS (professional grading services) are not supposed to accept regular grade anything that's been cleaned.

Let alone an ASE MS69 with a hole on the reverse.

Not exactly. All TPG's, including our host, occasionally clean coins. There are proper and improper ways of doing it. Body bags result from improper cleaning.

Lance.

[James_OldeTowne]

Body bags result from improper cleaning.

Not to be a pest, but I'd say "Body bags usually result from improper cleaning".

 

Often, however, they do not.

[RGT]

Your story is a microcosm of one thing that is wrong with PCGS grading. Whether some of us like it or not, they reward the "bright is best" philosophy, and millions of coins (yes, I'd guess millions) have been dippy-doo'd as a result.

 

Of course, it's possible that the haze you saw on your peace dollar really was a problem, but if it was something acetone didn't touch, then it most likely was something that should have been acceptable.

 

Overall, I don't really mind white peace dollars, but the preference for dipped out coins carries over to too many series, way too often.

 

I agree with you on all counts. I thought the coin was great the way it was with the haze. It had original skin and I really didn't notice the slight haze. When PCGS put it in the genny holder I thought maybe the haze was PVC since I had heard that some of the older PCI holders contained PVC. I'm not sure if that is true though. I was surprised that acetone didn't remove it.

 

I prefer my peace dollars with some tone and skin but white doesn't bother me much for this series either. I'm still undecided about keeping it or selling it and getting a nice original example.

[Conder101]

When PCGS put it in the genny holder I thought maybe the haze was PVC since I had heard that some of the older PCI holders contained PVC. I'm not sure if that is true though.

It isn't.

[Hard Times]

I gotta say, when folks make statements like 'It isn't' it kind of leaves the discussion hanging and with the suggestion that Conder must know more. Well then, could you elaborate on this statement?

 

Thanks, HT

[RGT]

When PCGS put it in the genny holder I thought maybe the haze was PVC since I had heard that some of the older PCI holders contained PVC. I'm not sure if that is true though.

It isn't.

 

Well, I have cracked some of them that had a strong plastic smell that you might associate with PVC. However, despite being in these slabs for a number of years none of the coins had any PVC on them that I have seen.

 

HT, it never hurts to ask for more info or an explanation. But Conder101 seems to only post as if he has knowledge when he actually does have knowledge. I could count on one hand the number of times I can recall him getting his facts wrong and he was quick to correct himself when someone pointed it out. If he says they don't have PVC I will believe it until someone proves it wrong.

[RGT]

No offense to RGT and I hope he doesnt take offense but why do we as a hobby reward doctoring ?

 

If I had come onto the boards and talked about the same coin but added that instead of dipping off the haze I carefully added some original looking toning that concealed the reed mark and and the reverse mark and got it into a PCGS 65 slab I would be strung up as a coin doctor and the scourge of the industry.

 

Take some original skin off a coin and Wahhhhoooo ! Winner winner chicken dinner !

 

Again, I blame the TPGs for this one not RGT to be clear.

 

No offense taken. Actually I was expecting someone to comment that I should have left the coin original even if it meant leaving it raw rather than clean or doctor it. I understand that point of view and I much more prefer my coins original. But I also don't like losing money and I doubt I could have gotten my initial cost back if I tried to sell it raw or in the genuine holder. It's a nice coin and didn't deserve to be doomed to a life as a problem coin.

 

The coin community has grown accepting of dipping coins white over the years. I hope they never grow to accept artificial toning. Most people don't have a problem with dipping some haze off a modern coin but as the coins get older they expect them to look older. A white peace dollar doesn't raise eyebrows like a white seated liberty dollar does.

 

Yes, the hobby does often reward doctoring. Some of the reward is justified. Taking PVC off of a coin before it damages the surfaces is the right thing to do. Some other doctoring, such as dipping a 19th century coin, might result in a higher grade from the TPGs, but it will also limit the marketability of the coin because many collectors don't want a coin like that.

 

Dipping a coin is not usually a deceptive practice. Most of the time it is pretty obvious that a coin has been dipped and if it's not obvious then it probably doesn't matter. But when you get into adding tone to hide hairlines or filling marks with putty and lazering surfaces, those are deceptive and I don't know anyone who knowingly would buy those coins for the full market value of an un-doctored coin of the seemingly same condition.

[e1cnr]

congrats on your result

 

 

I still have a problem with restoration vs doctoring

 

 

If I was going to sell a car, would it be wrong to make it look as best as it could?

 

 

some stuff sitting on coins is just bad - PVC and other contaminants for example

some stuff can make the coin more beautiful

 

I have seen a few coins that have toning related to an old fingerprint

that adds great to eye appeal of that particular coin

 

although in most cases fingerprints are ugly distracters

[Frank Provasek]

MS70 is a base, not an acid, and CANNOT remove metal or tarnish. The haze seen on many coins is usually a deposit of various impurities in the air that temperature changes over the years cause to condense on the metal. Removing this from the coin is a good thing.

[Frank Provasek]

I prefer my peace dollars with some tone and skin but white doesn't bother me much for this series either. I'm still undecided about keeping it or selling it and getting a nice original example.

 

You HAVE a nice original example. Removing grime does not make something less than original.