Coin collecting and toning-please help...!

[mintcollector]

Okay, I am somewhat of a 'newbie' to intermediate coin collector, as I mostly collect high grade currency and comic books. That being said I always collected and have had an interest in 'slabbed' coins from NGC and to a lesser extent PCGS coins as well. This leads me to my question. I like silver coins the most, followed by gold; however I hate toning at all costs.

 

This has prompted me to look for the brightest most 'white' coins I could find. It has also caused some trouble as some collectors and dealers tell me I am 'nuts' because these kind of coins most obviously have been 'dipped.' My argument is that I do NOT like toned coins and that most toned coins have either been artificially toned OR will NOT stay in their natural toned stated forever (meaning that wonderful 'rainbow' toned Morgan you have will one day turn black and ugly).

 

The question is (and please think both from an investment angle and a collecting angle) am I wrong to collect this way? It is getting hard to look for non-toned coins in an age where some collectors covet toned coins; however I think I am correct in my collecting pursuits.

 

Will the value of my 'white' coins tank over time...?

 

What are your thoughts? And I am sorry if this has been asked before, but I don't know how else to word it from my standpoint.

 

Thanks again guys for your help!

[cpm9ball]

Everyone has their preferences, and there is nothing wrong with collecting your way. I guess the notion that "all coins have been dipped" depends on the series you collect. Take the Morgans, for example. There were 150 million or so in the Treasury releases of the 60's & 70's. A lot of those coins were blast white and needed no dipping or maybe just a "minor facelift", but at that time, there were a lot of collectors and dealers who did not like toning and so some of the toners did get dipped. If they had only known then that 40 years or so later the toning market would take off like it has, maybe they wouldn't have been so finnicky.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Collect your heart's desire. The market for white coins -- including dipped -- is large and always growing.... as is the market for toned coins.

[TonerGuy]

A question....

 

You dont like toned coins because you believe them to be artificially toned and hence "doctored" or you just dont like coins that dont look like they just came off the press ?

 

As for your claim that the toned coins will turn black in a slab, I can assure you that usually doesnt happen once the coin is removed from the toning element. Unless the coin has had chemicals purposefully applied to the coin and then quickly slabbed.

 

The same applies to dipped white coins. For the most part once properly dipped and rinsed they should stay nice bright and white in a slab. However, if not properly dipped and rinsed, then you will see some changes to the coin in the slab.

 

Dipping is doctoring and if the chemicals used to dip off an original skin from the coin arent properly neutralized the coin will turn in the slab as well.

 

I am not a chemist and I am sure physics-fan can give a much better explanation though.

 

As for your question, blast white will always have its fans and detractors. Like toners you are collecting a niche in my opinion. Niches always have a limited market.

 

Obviously from my name you can tell I love toned coins. I will never collect dipped out blast white coins that look unnaturally clean. But I would buy coins that might not be toned but at least have a natural skin to them. And any silver coin thats 30+ yrs old should have some skin to its surfaces and not look like it just got ejected from the Mint's presses.

 

So I dont think your coins will tank. But if you are looking for investment grade coins I wouldnt focus on dipped white coins nor would I focus on toners. I think for investment purposes looked at natural skin high grade MS65/66+ coins and beautiful key dates of all grades.

[BillJones]

Dipping is doctoring and if the chemicals used to dip off an original skin from the coin arent properly neutralized the coin will turn in the slab as well.

 

Dipping is NOT DOCTORING. Doctoring involves fundamental moving of the metal on the surface of a coin. Dipping, done correctly, involves the removal of a limited amount of oxidized metal leaving almost all of the mint luster left intact.

 

If every coin that had ever been dipped or lightened were declared to be “doctored” there would be very few early and 19th century U.S. coins left for us to collect. Please don’t go out of your way to ruin the value of other people’s collections with personal opinions.

 

And I’ll leave you with this. If you collect early U.S. silver coins, a lot of the pieces that you think are original, might be called “original now.” They were once dipped or had something done to them and then toned again.

 

[TomB]

I'll address a few points. First, arm yourself with knowledge and collect what moves you, but always keep an eye open for more learning and keep yourself flexible enough in your mind that you are open to incorporate new ideas. Also, depending upon the series and grade range of the coins that you are looking it there will be variable probabilities that a coin has been dipped. If you have a blast white MS64 1881-S Morgan dollar then it might likely be original where a blast white MS64 1929-S Standing Liberty quarter may or may not be original and a blast white MS64 1872 Seated Liberty half dollar has almost certainly been dipped. Whether or not dipping is a positive for the appearance of a coin will be up to you and some folks will agree while others will not and this can be on a case-by-case basis. Additionally, naturally toned coins should not continue to tone over time if they are taken away from the environment that caused the toning. Toning is not some organic, living entity; it is an inorganic chemical process that can be halted at any time. Similarly, blast white coins can tone if placed within an environment that is conducive to the required inorganic reactions. The statement that most coins have been artificially toned, if applied broadly, shows a lack of education in the subtlety of the niche unless you qualify that statement with a caveat such as that it pertains primarily to raw, low grade coins sold on ebay that are uncertified and that have incredibly unusual colors that are offered at a tiny fraction of what they would be worth if they were legitimate. Most toned coins in NGC and PCGS holders are likely what would be considered naturally toned by most collectors and dealers with only some wildly questionable examples.

 

I do not think your desire for blast white coins is wrong and do not think that they will tank in value over time. The long range history of coin collecting has shown periods where blast white was more desired and where toned was more desired to the point that there have been times when toned coins were routinely dipped to take off their toning. Many folks still do this to toned coins and if they own the coins then that is their right, whether or not everyone agrees. In today's age of quality digital images and the internet it is trivial to share wonderful images of coins and many spectacularly or dramatically toned coins are shared and this can give the impression that they are far more common than they may truly be or that there are many more than there had been previous to these technical advancements. I am someone who appreciates originally toned coins quite a bit, but I would not tell you to abandon blast white coins if that is what gives you a rewarding experience.

 

Lastly, the dipping is doctoring vs. dipping isn't doctoring debate has a fatal flaw in that it will depend upon how one defines doctoring. I define doctoring as an intentional change in the appearance of a coin to either improve its grade, change it aesthetics, hide a problem or increase its apparent value. Given that definition then dipping is most definitely doctoring. However, Bill Jones, who is a very experienced and knowledgeable collector, does not define dipping in the same manner and uses a more traditional, market acceptable approach to the issue that leads him to the opposite conclusion. I do not attempt to convince folks one way or the other.

[TonerGuy]

 

Dipping is NOT DOCTORING. Doctoring involves fundamental moving of the metal on the surface of a coin. Dipping, done correctly, involves the removal of a limited amount of oxidized metal leaving almost all of the mint luster left intact.

 

Sorry for getting off topic but....

 

Wait you define doctoring as the moving of metal on the surface of a coin then define dipping as the removal of limited amount of metal from the surface of a coin but then say it isnt doctoring. You're argument is not only confusing it defies logic.

 

So if a doctor moves just a little metal - lets say he blends 1 hit on the cheek of a Morgan that will take the coin from a MS66 and get it into a MS67 slab that shouldnt count as doctoring ? What if the amount of metal moved in that instance equals the amount of metal moved when dipping a coin ?

 

I agree with Tom's definition....

 

I define doctoring as an intentional change in the appearance of a coin to either improve its grade, change it aesthetics, hide a problem or increase its apparent value. Given that definition then dipping is most definitely doctoring.

 

And Im not trying to ruin the value of other people's collection. Coins have inherent value that should not always be linked to slabs, grades, skin, dipping, toning or anything else that may be done to them.

 

A well circulated, cleaned and dinged Morgan dollar has a history that has value. Imagine the hands of the people that have held that coin. What transactions it has been the basis for. Was it used in a saloon in Reno in a poker game ? Or was it a casino coin from the Flamingo in Las Vegas. Whatever the history all coins are wonderful to their owners.

[C.I.]

As to the original question, I too prefer bright white or those with "warm" tones. But it all comes down to personal preference.

 

But as for the discussion on dipping, it seems even those with years of experience disagree. I have never understood why some view dipping as ok, meaning a coin dipped can be considered "original". We see many post surrounding AT or NT coins. It's a big thing. We wonder if our submissions will come back "cleaned, whizzed, burnished, AC or AT". NGC prints a complete page on grading details.

 

So where does dipping come in? One would think their list show possible alterations to a coin from it's original state. Alterations not natural with the minting and or storage of a coin. My question here is if AT is viewed in a negative manor, shouldn't artifical brightining? And that is what dipping does. Dipping is not a natural process. It alters the coin surface (somewhat the opposite to AT). Yet dipping in the proper manor (whatever that is) seems to be ok with many.

 

As a GSA collector, the issue of dipping is somewhat a mute point. It does however play a slight role when knowing those GSA's which you know could grade higher if you could just do the dip and remove that dark cheek graze which dropped it's grade a point or two. Most think we pay the premium for the packaging but in reality, we pay for what we consider an original coin. Personally, I have no problem should someone dip. The coin is in the eye of the beholder. Likewise, if can be determined a coin has been dipped, I think it should be so noted, just like all of the others. Not that it can not be graded, only that it is so noted (which I know is not practical or possible). There are many negative terms used in the details lingo. For me, there is only one meaning for original.

 

Chet

[World Colonial]

The question is (and please think both from an investment angle and a collecting angle) am I wrong to collect this way? It is getting hard to look for non-toned coins in an age where some collectors covet toned coins; however I think I am correct in my collecting pursuits.

 

Will the value of my 'white' coins tank over time...?

 

From a collectible standpoint, what matters most is your personal preference. With the series I collect (which include no US coins at all), my preference for toned versus untoned coins is a combination of how the coin is "supposed" to look as well how I think of the appeal for the color or lack of it.

 

So if I were a collector of US coins, I would buy Morgan dollars "blast white" but not early federal coinage.

 

From a financial standpoint, I would be willing to pay a MODEST premium for a toned coin over a "white" one IF that was my preference for the series but that is all. Modest premium will vary depending upon the coin.

 

What I see with US coins is that those with the current preferred toning frequently sell at substantial or exhorbitant premiums versus coins that are "white". And the more common the coin is, the larger the premium seems to be.

 

I would not be a buyer of these coins at current prices or anywhere near them at all. Given their current prices, I expect these to underperform their "white" counterparts generally. As to whether the "white" coins will crash in price, my answer is not unless coins do generally or the series does specifically. You did not mention any specific ones but if you collect say, Morgan dollars, I do not see that happening until the price of silver reverses. It's the number one "investment" silver coin in the world and probably more correlated to it than any other.

[jom]

Okay, I am somewhat of a 'newbie' to intermediate coin collector, as I mostly collect high grade currency and comic books. That being said I always collected and have had an interest in 'slabbed' coins from NGC and to a lesser extent PCGS coins as well.

 

I'll let what others have already said about the toning vs. white issue. The only problem I have with this is the above statement. Why does it matter who grades the coin? Both do a fine job at grading so I don't see why there is a "lesser" extent with PCGS. To each their own I guess but, IMO, it doesn't matter a damn who grades the coin as long as it's a reputable service. In fact, after you gain a lot of knowledge in grading you will be able to grade no matter WHAT service (even a non-reputable service or just flat out raw) graded it.

 

YOU are the best judge on whether you like a coin or not...and I include in the definition of the term "like" both aesthetically and the PRICE (ie grade) of the coin. The more you learn the better you'll be.

 

jom

[James_OldeTowne]

For my way of collecting coins and respecting numismatics, I feel that dipping coins IS a form of doctoring. However, it is a manipulation of a coin's surfaces that is frequently (too frequently, in my opinion) accepted by collectors as having no negative impact on a coin's appeal.

[cpm9ball]

Okay, I am somewhat of a 'newbie' to intermediate coin collector, as I mostly collect high grade currency and comic books. That being said I always collected and have had an interest in 'slabbed' coins from NGC and to a lesser extent PCGS coins as well.

 

The only problem I have with this is the above statement. Why does it matter who grades the coin? Both do a fine job at grading so I don't see why there is a "lesser" extent with PCGS. jom

 

I think you may be interpreting his statement tha wrong way. I think what he meant is that of all the slabs he owns, NGC represents the bulk of them. I don't think he was inferring that PCGS was somehow inferior.

 

Chris

[jom]

Okay, I am somewhat of a 'newbie' to intermediate coin collector, as I mostly collect high grade currency and comic books. That being said I always collected and have had an interest in 'slabbed' coins from NGC and to a lesser extent PCGS coins as well.

 

The only problem I have with this is the above statement. Why does it matter who grades the coin? Both do a fine job at grading so I don't see why there is a "lesser" extent with PCGS. jom

 

I think you may be interpreting his statement tha wrong way. I think what he meant is that of all the slabs he owns, NGC represents the bulk of them. I don't think he was inferring that PCGS was somehow inferior.

 

Chris

 

OK, probably. However, I do know there are some collectors who seem to stick to one TPG and I find that just crazy. I mean, why pass up a coin just because it has been graded by another service? Are we collecting slabs or coins? Sometimes reading the forums I'm not too sure....

 

jom

[mintcollector]

Okay, I am somewhat of a 'newbie' to intermediate coin collector, as I mostly collect high grade currency and comic books. That being said I always collected and have had an interest in 'slabbed' coins from NGC and to a lesser extent PCGS coins as well.

 

The only problem I have with this is the above statement. Why does it matter who grades the coin? Both do a fine job at grading so I don't see why there is a "lesser" extent with PCGS. jom

 

I think you may be interpreting his statement tha wrong way. I think what he meant is that of all the slabs he owns, NGC represents the bulk of them. I don't think he was inferring that PCGS was somehow inferior.

 

Chris

 

OK, probably. However, I do know there are some collectors who seem to stick to one TPG and I find that just crazy. I mean, why pass up a coin just because it has been graded by another service? Are we collecting slabs or coins? Sometimes reading the forums I'm not too sure....

 

jom

 

Let me assure you that I collect from both companies. I do OWN mostly NGC graded coins at present time; but please understand that this is nothing against PCGS, it just happneded that way by chance.

 

These are the series I currently collect, as I feel this may give all of you a better understanding of the questions I ask:

 

Morgan Dollars, Peace Dollars, Mercury Dimes, and Buffalo Nickels. I find the Buffalo Nickels the hardest to buy, followed closely by Morgans, as most have a slight tone to them. Most Mercury Dimes, in my experience, appear to be 'blast white' (dipped or not).

 

I also use a product called Intercept 'slab' holders and boxes and am finding good use for this product. I would like to collect American Eagles, but again, I have no idea what to look for in these coins or what investment grade to collect...

 

I thank you all for your help with this!

[cpm9ball]

I would like to collect American Eagles, but again, I have no idea what to look for in these coins or what investment grade to collect...

 

This is just my personal opinion, but I think you would be making a mistake buying PF and/or MS 70's unless you can get them at a very low price. Too many people have bought the 70's at prices that offer little to no chance of recouping the investment. Besides, if you can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70, you may as well buy the 69.

 

Chris

[jom]

 

Morgan Dollars, Peace Dollars, Mercury Dimes, and Buffalo Nickels. I find the Buffalo Nickels the hardest to buy, followed closely by Morgans, as most have a slight tone to them.

 

I like this...as that leaves all of the nicely toned Buffalos to me.

 

This is just my personal opinion, but I think you would be making a mistake buying PF and/or MS 70's unless you can get them at a very low price. Too many people have bought the 70's at prices that offer little to no chance of recouping the investment. Besides, if you can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70, you may as well buy the 69.

 

I know that a lot of people don't take this advice and I agree that it's a big mistake. This is what I mean by collecting slabs. I mean, does anyone really see any difference in a MS70 from, say, a MS67? Most of these coins are virtually perfect anyway so who cares what holder they are in or even whether they are certified at all. Occasionally I'll see a nicely toned (deep orange usually) example that is sitting in a MS70 holder and I'm sad since I know I'll never pay the premium for it. The coin is truly "entombed" in the slab. The prices are outrageous compared to a non-certified coin (or even just a plain ol' MS69).

 

jom

[PCcoins]

My argument is that I do NOT like toned coins and that most toned coins have either been artificially toned OR will NOT stay in their natural toned stated forever (meaning that wonderful 'rainbow' toned Morgan you have will one day turn black and ugly).

 

...

 

All silver coins will tone in time, unless you vacuum seal the coin. Nothing wrong with liking blast white coins, I enjoy the original ones with blazing luster, don't care for the dipped examples.

 

[mintcollector]

My argument is that I do NOT like toned coins and that most toned coins have either been artificially toned OR will NOT stay in their natural toned stated forever (meaning that wonderful 'rainbow' toned Morgan you have will one day turn black and ugly).

 

...

 

All silver coins will tone in time, unless you vacuum seal the coin. Nothing wrong with liking blast white coins, I enjoy the original ones with blazing luster, don't care for the dipped examples.

 

I agree fully, HOWEVER, I am not paying a premium for my blast white coins, and number two, I am collecting what I like. Whether you agree with what I buy or not, as of right now, I don't see crazy premiums being paid for blast white mercury dimes...I do however, see premiums being paid for rainbow morgans...

 

[TonerGuy]

I don't see crazy premiums being paid for blast white mercury dimes...I do however, see premiums being paid for rainbow morgans...

 

Because anyone with some dip can create blast white Mercury dimes that will grade. And before you say it - yes there are some people than can create rainbow toned Morgans - it is significantly more difficult to do so and get them into PCGS/NGC slabs....

 

Unfortunately, premium also flows towards talent...

[fishfinder]

I would like to collect American Eagles, but again, I have no idea what to look for in these coins or what investment grade to collect...

 

This is just my personal opinion, but I think you would be making a mistake buying PF and/or MS 70's unless you can get them at a very low price. Too many people have bought the 70's at prices that offer little to no chance of recouping the investment. Besides, if you can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70, you may as well buy the 69.

 

Chris

 

Although I do not buy them now, I bought silver and gold Amnerican Eagles 4-5 years ago in only MS/PF 70 and my investment is close to doubling. I agree this may not be a good idea now. The 70 modern commemoratives took a huge hit though in the same time period.

[jom]

Although I do not buy them now, I bought silver and gold Amnerican Eagles 4-5 years ago in only MS/PF 70 and my investment is close to doubling. I agree this may not be a good idea now. The 70 modern commemoratives took a huge hit though in the same time period.

 

Would this be due to the MS70 grade or the fact bullion has done real well? Also, would an MS69 coin also double in the same time period...or even a raw piece?

 

Just curious...

 

jom

[mintcollector]

I don't see crazy premiums being paid for blast white mercury dimes...I do however, see premiums being paid for rainbow morgans...

 

Because anyone with some dip can create blast white Mercury dimes that will grade. And before you say it - yes there are some people than can create rainbow toned Morgans - it is significantly more difficult to do so and get them into PCGS/NGC slabs....

 

Unfortunately, premium also flows towards talent...

 

I wanted to quick reply to this. Please note that I also stated in this same thread to collect what you like. Obviously your name states that you like toned coins. Had I have come on these boards under the name 'blastwhitecoinguy,' I personally would not feel comfortable commenting on a thread about toned coins. It would not seem 'balanced' or 'just.'

 

That being said, I fully AGREE with you; however, have you ever seen an improperly 'dipped' coin? Not a nice looking coin to behold. Also keep in mind that what I am saying is that personally, I would never pay a premium for a toned coin...just an opinion. Collect what you like. My original question concerned me (and was asked) because I am more of a 'newbie,' than most other collectors.

 

Responding to someone else still; I do my best to STOP toning from occurring on all my coins. I use INTERCEPT shield boxes and holders and I place the box in a plastic bag before it goes into my main storage area. I would LOVE to collect 'Walkers,' but have been 'burned' too many times on coins I thought looked great until I saw them up close.

[mintcollector]

Although I do not buy them now, I bought silver and gold Amnerican Eagles 4-5 years ago in only MS/PF 70 and my investment is close to doubling. I agree this may not be a good idea now. The 70 modern commemoratives took a huge hit though in the same time period.

 

Would this be due to the MS70 grade or the fact bullion has done real well? Also, would an MS69 coin also double in the same time period...or even a raw piece?

 

Just curious...

 

jom

 

Great question(s), as I am wondering this myself. I don't even know where to start collecting these kind of coins or how? Are these coins even of a collectible nature or are they bought merely as a source of bullion?

[TomB]

I also use Intercept Shield holders and think this is a good idea for long term storage. My coins are placed into individual Intercept Shield holders and then ten holders are put into a larger Intercept Shield box. The box is then placed inside a heavy Glad or Ziploc bag that is sealed and put into my safe deposit box. Some of my coins are untoned, though most are toned, but I still want to inhibit additional toning over time.

[robec1347]

Deleted

[TonerGuy]

 

I wanted to quick reply to this. Please note that I also stated in this same thread to collect what you like. Obviously your name states that you like toned coins. Had I have come on these boards under the name 'blastwhitecoinguy,' I personally would not feel comfortable commenting on a thread about toned coins. It would not seem 'balanced' or 'just.'

 

That being said, I fully AGREE with you; however, have you ever seen an improperly 'dipped' coin? Not a nice looking coin to behold. Also keep in mind that what I am saying is that personally, I would never pay a premium for a toned coin...just an opinion. Collect what you like. My original question concerned me (and was asked) because I am more of a 'newbie,' than most other collectors.

 

 

Its not that I hate blast white coins. I dont. I just find a 50+ yr old coin that is blast white to be unnatural. Is it possible - sure but it is unlikely. Therefore the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn is that the coin was dipped. Dipping to me, whether it improves the look of the coin or not - is not acceptable. To me its akin to a coin doctor adding a layer of even toning to make the coin more visually pleasing.

 

I think both your collecting habits and mine allow doctors and dippers to ply their trade. If there was no premium for toned coins no one would try and AT them. If dipping coins didnt improve the look so as to push the coin to an upgrade, no one would dip off perhaps what some see as undesirable original skin.

 

But you do pay a premium for blast white coins. That beautiful blast white MS67 Merc might have been an original skin MS65 or 66 before dipping. Luster factors into grade and hence price.

 

I just hate to see coins dipped or doctored in an attempt to increase their value, but alas, that is the world we live in.

 

I hope you develop a great collection of blast white coins and they stay that way !

 

But my advice would be to seek out and purchase original skin and untampered with coins. if you are looking for an investment - they will hold their value the best and will become far more scarce than blast white or toned coins in the years to come.

[lehigh96]

I don't see crazy premiums being paid for blast white mercury dimes...I do however, see premiums being paid for rainbow morgans...

 

Because anyone with some dip can create blast white Mercury dimes that will grade. And before you say it - yes there are some people than can create rainbow toned Morgans - it is significantly more difficult to do so and get them into PCGS/NGC slabs....

 

Unfortunately, premium also flows towards talent...

 

I wanted to quick reply to this. Please note that I also stated in this same thread to collect what you like. Obviously your name states that you like toned coins. Had I have come on these boards under the name 'blastwhitecoinguy,' I personally would not feel comfortable commenting on a thread about toned coins. It would not seem 'balanced' or 'just.'

 

That being said, I fully AGREE with you; however, have you ever seen an improperly 'dipped' coin? Not a nice looking coin to behold. Also keep in mind that what I am saying is that personally, I would never pay a premium for a toned coin...just an opinion. Collect what you like. My original question concerned me (and was asked) because I am more of a 'newbie,' than most other collectors.

 

Responding to someone else still; I do my best to STOP toning from occurring on all my coins. I use INTERCEPT shield boxes and holders and I place the box in a plastic bag before it goes into my main storage area. I would LOVE to collect 'Walkers,' but have been 'burned' too many times on coins I thought looked great until I saw them up close.

 

 

When I was a new collector, I fancied blast white full band Mercury Dimes. I had a very nice short set (1934-1945) and most were MS67 FB. Now the only certified full band white Mercury dime I own is one I won in a contest.

 

It is very common for newer collectors to be drawn towards coins that look like they came fresh from the mint. However, over time, most collectors develop an appreciation for the originality and personality afforded by a nicely patinated coin. This does not mean that everyone becomes a toning freak willing to pay huge premiums for rainbow toned coins.

 

I liken the appreciation of toning to that of wine drinkers. Most wine drinkers start with white zinfandel or Chardonnay. As they become more experienced, the venture into the world of the full bodied reds that often have complex flavors.

 

Just my thoughts on the subject!