Lets say you have a Morgan graded MS-65 by PCGS....

[Aethelred]

You have a Morgan graded MS-65 by PCGS. Lets call the price it sells for 100%. If you sell the SAME coin in an NGC holder what % will it sell for? lets say that our hypothetical coin is not common, but also not a key. I'm not trying to start anything here, just wondering what you think.

[LucyBop]

It depends... One coin may still be better then the other....

 

One may have some nice toning and warant a premium....

 

Though coins maybe of the same grade, even the same company,.....

 

No two coins are the same.... not to me eye.... each and every one is unique...

 

a quailty ms65 GEM can bring a strong price, regardless of whom holders it....

[Aethelred]

I agree with you Lucy, but I am talking about the SAME coin. Say I have the coin in a PCGS MS-65 and sell it for $500. I then buy the coin back and for some reason crack it and send it to NGC and they also give it a 5. How much less (if anything) could I expect it to sell for?

[LucyBop]

I don't know how Morgans would go grade for grade between NGC and PCGs.....

 

It seems that one would only crack a PCGs coin in a five holder hoping for a six holder at NGC, one thing it would say, atleast on this particular coin both services agree that it is GEM in a 5 holder and nothing more.....

[sanmary]

I agree with you Lucy. There are quality coins to be found in all of the reputalble services holders. I have properly graded coins in ICG, ANACS, PCGS, and NGC holders. I think someone is fishing here. I buy the coin INSIDE THE HOLDER, not the holder itself. PCGS coins do seem to command a higher premium, within some series, but are all coins in a certain grade created equal?? NO!!

[DonHeath]

That info is pretty readily available. A quick search of Teletrade will provide useable data. I've compared commons, and there is no meaningful difference, but I haven't looked at semi-keys.

 

[gmarguli]

According to PQPeace, the coin in the NGC slab would be worthless since he couldn't sell it.

 

I picked up my copy of the Bluesheet (a few weeks old) and picked dats at random. You'll have to trust me that they were completely random. I picked date based on sticking my finger blindly by a date.

 

All are for MS65 bid prices

1888-S

PCGS: 1910

NGC: 2050

 

1883-CC

PCGS: 268

NGC: 265

 

1895-S

PCGS: 12,000

NGC: 12,000

 

Again, I pick 3 dates at complete random.

 

My answer as to what the same coin in the NGC slab would sell for: 100%.

[DonHeath]

Greg,

 

After looking at 3 pages of 83-CC's (all 65 non-PL sold in the last 360 days), the numbers match Bluesheet almost exactly. The degree of accuracy is better than I would have expected, although in the last 60 days, they seem to be trending up to around $300 in both holders.

 

[jom]

No two coins are the same.... not to my eye.... each and every one is unique...

 

Right. And what I like you may find hideous and vice versa. For every collector there's another grading standard. The 100% valued coin I may never even consider buying at 20 cents but Lucy might pay 110% because she loves it.

 

Coins are far too unique to attribute just one label, such as MS65, to a coin. The grade of a coin is not the "know all end all". It is simply one way to communicate what a coin might look like to one who hasn't seen it....

 

jom

[LucyBop]

The 100% valued coin I may never even consider buying at 20 cents but Lucy might pay 110% because she loves it.

 

Hmmm..... why do I sniff a Franklin half subliminal slam here?

 

[jom]

Hmmm..... why do I sniff a Franklin half subliminal slam here?

 

None intended. It was just an analogy. Using a Franklin example wouldn't be a good analogy since I wouldn't consider a Franklin. BUT..if we both collected, say, Morgans it is still very possible you could like a particular coin where I wouldn't. The grade is really irrelevant at that point...

 

jom

[BushMan]

Well, I own some Morgans, yet rarely buy them. So, it is hard for me to offer an opinion to the Morgan purchase. However, in my area of specialty, the Seated Half, I can find little, if any, differential in price. In fact, I will always give a preference to the NGC holder to that of pcgs.

 

Greg has provided MANY examples of price parity for the Morgan dollars. Not only in this thread, but in many others in the past. Those with pcgs blinders on, seem to go to any effort to defend their holder. I'll continue to spend my dollars on NGC holdered coins.

[Wihlborg]

I would like to change the question for a moment. Lets say that you go to your local coin shop and see two of the same coins, one in an NGC MS-65 holder and the other in a PCGS MS-65 holder. The NGC coin is less money than the PCGS coin. Both coins are of the same quality.

 

You decide to buy the PCGS coin because you believe that a coin in a PCGS holder is somehow better than a coin in a NGC holder. You go home happy with your new purchase.

 

About a month later you decide to take a trip to the local coin shop again to see if they have anything new. While looking through the cases you spot a nice ‘new’ coin in a PCGS holder just like the one you bought a month ago. After asking the dealer about the coin you find out that it that it isn’t really ‘new’ at all, it’s the same coin you saw in the NGC holder a month ago, but the dealer decided to cross the coin to PCGS so it would sell faster and he could get more money for it.

 

Are you still happy with your purchase from a month ago?

 

I do not send coins to PCGS anymore, but when I did I crossed a number of NGC coins to PCGS and never had one fail to cross, including a 1982 D Washington commem half that I bought at a local coin show in a NGC holder graded MS-69 for $50. I sent this coin to PCGS and it now resides in a PCGS MS-69 holder. What did I gain? Well according to price lists, in a PCGS holder this coin is worth about $1,350. Humm….same coin.

 

This is why I find the fact that some people buy only PCGS coins, or pay more for PCGS coins than NGC coins laughable.

 

There are great coins in both NGC & PCGS holders, and IMO anyone who says otherwise is not being truthful to themselves. On the other hand I have seen plenty of coins in all companies holders, including PCGS, that I would not want for free.

 

It’s supposed to be about the coins people, not the plastic that surrounds them.

 

John

[GDJMSP]

What it all boils down to are people's perceptions. But that doesn't mean that perceptions equal reality. And like anything else - perceptions change over time. And sometimes they change to the point that they do eventually equate reality.

[MikeKing]

I wouldn't pay any less for a coin in an NGC holder.

All this NGC PCGS stuff is a crock of XXXX

I will tell you what I WOULD be cautious about: PCGS grading of copper coins, even if sold by DH at his web site.

You live and you learn.

[jom]

I wouldn't pay any less for a coin in an NGC holder.

 

You see, that's the difference. I would TRY to pay less because I'm a cheap skate.

 

Let me point out some experiences I've had. I collect $5 Indian half eagles and I've noticed a trend while looking at websites, Ebay, bourse, and live auctions. Without a doubt the VAST majority of nicer better date $5 Indians reside in PCGS holders. The grades I'm talking about here are between AU55 and MS63 or so (not higher grades). Now does this mean that PCGS is "better"? Well, not necessarily because the way I see it is when a PQ $5 is found it is broken out and sent to PCGS because the seller knows it'll bring more money.

 

But the main question is WHY? From what I can tell looking at many of these is that many, what I call, "junk unc" coins (probably from Europe) have been sent thru NGC. This has had a tendency to bring down the average prices for THIS series in NGC holders. Therefore, the nicer ones get cherry-picked and sent to PCGS. However, note that this is not a reflection of NGC's ability to grade because if that "cherry picked" coin resided in the correct holder NGC did their job, no? The fact it gets broken out and sent to PCGS does hurt NGC because now their grading of that coin originally is lost since the coin isn't "represented" by NGC anymore.

 

So bascially people aren't cracking coins out because PCGS is somehow "better" it's the simple fact the holdered coins bring more money. Some think this DOES mean PCGS is better. I disagree because if I saw a "cherry-pickable" coin in an NGC holder I would not hesitate to buy it. Doesn't that count for something?

 

Also note that I'm only talking about $5 Indians here and in CERTAIN grades I look at. There are many, many many different series of coins that this analogy probably doesn't hold (such as the aforementioned Morgan). Each series is different and it pays to know what you are doing (ie how to grade for yourself) within the series you collect.

 

jom

[James_OldeTowne]

I think the answer depends on whether you mean sight-seen or not. If you mean sight-seen, say at a major auction or coin show with an otherwise level playing field, and a reasonably well-informed audience, the NGC coin will sell for exactly the same amount.

 

In the sight-unseen market, there is a false and self-propagating perception that PCGS coins are somehow "better". Therefore, the NGC coin will sell for a discount. However, what's important to recognize is that both coins would sell for a considerable discount off the sight-seen market anyway, so that's really a non-issue. It seems the issue is: Which coin sells for the bigger discount on the sight-unseen market.

 

That said, I think it's extremely risky to buy coins sight-unseen. I've personally been burned way too many times buying sight-unseen coins, and believe you me, there is NO safe holder you can buy sight-unseen. The absolute worst, most disgusting coins I've purchased have been in PCGS, NGC and ICG holders from sight-unseen venues. It's a mistake I do not make any more. When I do bid sight-unseen, I categorically drop the coin down one full grade, regardless of the holder, and I stay below greysheet "bid". Obviously, that's why I no longer "win" such coins.

 

James

[jom]

Great post, James. Totally agree!

 

jom