Question:

[JStull]

If you were to take a genuinely issued coin and alter the date(to a more rarer or key date), and finish of that coin(from original luster to a modern matte or satin one), would that be considered counterfeiting?

 

 

[Walkerfan]

They're real coins that were altered. It's not black/white but if I must say yes/no, then definitely yes, b/c done fraudulently for misrepresentation and illegal gain!!

[cpm9ball]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the section of the US Code pertaining to counterfeiting includes the word "alters".......with the intent to defraud.

 

Chris

[okbustchaser]

No, it's an altered coin. Selling it would be commiting fraud, not counterfeiting.

 

As for the portion of the US Code that deals with altering it is my understanding that it is in reference to raising a denomination--such as the so-called "Racketeering nickels"--rather than changing a date or mintmark.

[jesbroken]

I think the counterfeiting laws deal solely with the creation of a false coin/currency to be represented as genuine, not the alteration of a genuine coin. While both should be equally as illegal, I believe that altering a coin's date or mintmark would be fraud not counterfeiting.

JMO

Jim

[JStull]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the section of the US Code pertaining to counterfeiting includes the word "alters".......with the intent to defraud.

 

Chris

 

TITLE 15 > CHAPTER 48 > § 2101

 

(b) Coins and other numismatic items

The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked “copy”, is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.].

[JStull]

No, it's an altered coin. Selling it would be commiting fraud, not counterfeiting.

 

As for the portion of the US Code that deals with altering it is my understanding that it is in reference to raising a denomination--such as the so-called "Racketeering nickels"--rather than changing a date or mintmark.

 

So what do you think about the D. Carr 1964D Fantasy Peace?

 

[James_OldeTowne]

It is not counterfeiting, though it is fraudulent. It is an "alteration" of an existing coin. I voted "no".

[JStull]

It is not counterfeiting, though it is fraudulent. It is an "alteration" of an existing coin. I voted "no".

 

However, there are some that were struck on homemade planchets possibly.

 

 

[okbustchaser]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the section of the US Code pertaining to counterfeiting includes the word "alters".......with the intent to defraud.

 

Chris

 

TITLE 15 > CHAPTER 48 > § 2101

 

(b) Coins and other numismatic items

The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked “copy”, is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.].

 

Your quote has nothing to do with the US code dealing with counterfeiting. It is from the "Hobby Protection Act." which deals with protecting collectors of numismatic items from fraud rather than protecting the US money supply. That's why enforcement falls under the perview of the Trade Commission rather than the Treasury Department.

[JStull]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the section of the US Code pertaining to counterfeiting includes the word "alters".......with the intent to defraud.

 

Chris

 

TITLE 15 > CHAPTER 48 > § 2101

 

(b) Coins and other numismatic items

The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked “copy”, is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.].

 

Your quote has nothing to do with the US code dealing with counterfeiting. It is from the "Hobby Protection Act." which deals with protecting collectors of numismatic items from fraud rather than protecting the US money supply. That's why enforcement falls under the perview of the Trade Commission rather than the Treasury Department.

 

However, this thread is about numismatic items and the poll question clearly states coins.

[okbustchaser]

The poll question also clearly references counterfeiting not numismatic fraud.

[JStull]

The poll question also clearly references counterfeiting not numismatic fraud.

 

No it asks if coins that have had their date and finish altered counterfeit.

[okbustchaser]

No, altering the date or finish of a genuine coin is not counterfeiting. Selling that altered coin as something other than the altered coin that it is would be fraud, but the section of the HPA that you quoted would still not apply

[James_OldeTowne]

If you were to take a genuinely issued coin and alter the date(to a more rarer or key date), and finish of that coin(from original luster to a modern matte or satin one), would that be considered counterfeiting?

A classic example would be someone who takes a silver eagle, sandblasts it to create a matte surface, then alters the date to his grandmother's birthyear, which happens to be 1922 (key date for matte-proof dollars).

 

Is that coin now a counterfeit? Absolutely NOT in my opinion.

 

Is that fraud? Absolutely NOT in my opinion.

 

But, what if that person then advertises the coin on eBay as a "genuine matte proof dollar" ?