we are less lenient with dealers (from locked ATS)

[grade it-migration]

 

DonWillis

President, PCGS

 

Posts: 481

Joined: Nov 2008

 

 

Thursday February 03, 2011 2:50 AM (NEW!)

 

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If anyone buys a Plus (+) graded PCGS coin and believes that the coin is overgraded and should not have received the + all you have to do is send it in to us. PCGS has the best grading guarantee in the business.

 

We will review the coin and if we agree we will offer to buy the coin or downgrade it and write a check for the difference in value. We are committed to a very high standard for + coins. If we don't agree with you we will explain, but we might still buy it if you are a collector (we are less lenient with dealers).

 

 

PCGS has very strict standards for + graded coins and we will stand behind every coin graded as such. Guaranteed!!

 

 

Forget about the mistakes made in this thread or the fact that we are probably only talking about a difference of less than $100 in value. I belive the OP had good intentions but none of us can be sure of the facts because you cannot grade a coin from a photograph. This all could have been taken care of with a simple phone call or email.

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=804329

 

Subjective guarantee?

 

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

we are less lenient with dealers

I believe it's a philosophy begun by David Hall, who told me that exact same thing about ten years ago.

[kryptonitecomics]

interesting read...thanks for the link.

[TonerGuy]

How do they define dealers ? Do you have to be a registered dealer with PCGS or if you are a known vest pocket dealer or a Power Ebay seller does that count ?

 

I can understand the reasoning but the lines get blurry....

[Oldtrader3]

I notice that "Longacre" (aka: David Bowers) is grading it as a MS64. That says it all to me.

[DWLange]

I don't believe Longacre is QDB, unless he's undergone a rejuvenation.

[gmarguli]

It's well known that all the TPGs are more willing to buy back a coin from a collector than a dealer. Gotta keep the minions happy....

[Dudley the 1st]

That coin was obviously mistakingly encapsulated . I fault PCGS for not catching this before it was sent back to the submitter . That said, no TPG firm is 100% and mistakes will happen from time - time , it's all a part of the Human -Error factor . I'm sure this raised some eye-brows at PCGS .

 

With regards to their policy and applying a lenient approach , justifiably so they lean on the side of the individual collector rather than any Bulk Dealer .

[WoodenJefferson]

It's well known that all the TPGs are more willing to buy back a coin from a collector than a dealer. Gotta keep the minions happy....

 

This makes a lot of sense, dealers handle X number of coins on a daily basis, their objective is to sell it by the end of the day. A collector wishes to buy it by the end of the day but will hold onto it for X number of days.

 

There is nothing wrong with a company disclosing their intentions, it's also a good idea to keep the share holders happy by limiting expenditures.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I did finally read the whole thread - yes, I was bored as plywood and had nothing better to do this evening.

 

I actually agree with the PCGS assessment in this case, and don't agree with Rick Snow. I think the coin, if as nice as depicted, could very easily be 64+, with a weak strike. It appears to me to be an MS-66 RB that was knocked down a point for the peripheral weakness, likely from a tapered planchet, and then further knocked down 1/2 a point just to be conservative.

 

To me, strike issues should be accounted in an overall net grade, just as would a bagmark, a couple of hairlines, or some minor spots.

[WoodenJefferson]

[Tradedollarnut]

I did finally read the whole thread - yes, I was bored as plywood and had nothing better to do this evening.

 

I actually agree with the PCGS assessment in this case, and don't agree with Rick Snow. I think the coin, if as nice as depicted, could very easily be 64+, with a weak strike. It appears to me to be an MS-66 RB that was knocked down a point for the peripheral weakness, likely from a tapered planchet, and then further knocked down 1/2 a point just to be conservative.

 

To me, strike issues should be accounted in an overall net grade, just as would a bagmark, a couple of hairlines, or some minor spots.

 

OMG - we finally agree 100% on something!

[TomB]

I notice that "Longacre" (aka: David Bowers) is grading it as a MS64. That says it all to me.

 

The PCGS user Longacre is not QDB.

[James_OldeTowne]

I did finally read the whole thread - yes, I was bored as plywood and had nothing better to do this evening.

 

I actually agree with the PCGS assessment in this case, and don't agree with Rick Snow. I think the coin, if as nice as depicted, could very easily be 64+, with a weak strike. It appears to me to be an MS-66 RB that was knocked down a point for the peripheral weakness, likely from a tapered planchet, and then further knocked down 1/2 a point just to be conservative.

 

To me, strike issues should be accounted in an overall net grade, just as would a bagmark, a couple of hairlines, or some minor spots.

 

OMG - we finally agree 100% on something!

Shoot, I guess we're both wrong, then .

[michael]

DonWillis

President, PCGS

 

Posts: 481

Joined: Nov 2008

 

 

Thursday February 03, 2011 2:50 AM (NEW!)

 

Subscribe to this thread Email this thread to someone

 

If anyone buys a Plus (+) graded PCGS coin and believes that the coin is overgraded and should not have received the + all you have to do is send it in to us. PCGS has the best grading guarantee in the business.

 

We will review the coin and if we agree we will offer to buy the coin or downgrade it and write a check for the difference in value. We are committed to a very high standard for + coins. If we don't agree with you we will explain, but we might still buy it if you are a collector (we are less lenient with dealers).

 

 

PCGS has very strict standards for + graded coins and we will stand behind every coin graded as such. Guaranteed!!

 

 

Forget about the mistakes made in this thread or the fact that we are probably only talking about a difference of less than $100 in value. I belive the OP had good intentions but none of us can be sure of the facts because you cannot grade a coin from a photograph. This all could have been taken care of with a simple phone call or email.

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=804329

 

Subjective guarantee?

 

 

 

 

along with subjective grading depending on who is submitting

[grade it-migration]

 

 

along with subjective grading depending on who is submitting

 

The FTC took care of this problem in 1990 right?

 

According to the complaint accompanying the consent decree,

PCGS falsely represented that its grading system is objective, con-

sistent, and unbiased; that an investment in PCGS coins eliminates

the risk associated with the grading of coins; that its coins can

be liquidated easily at reasonable, competitive prices; and that

it observes a "strict anti-self interest policy."

 

In fact, the complaint charges, PCGS has not provided object-

ive or consistent grading, and coin grading involves a certain

amount of subjectivity. Not all PCGS-certified coins can be li-

quidated easily at reasonable, competitive prices, according to

the complaint, and PCGS does not in all cases observe its "strict

anti-self interest policy." In addition, the complaint charges,

investment in PCGS-certified coins does not eliminate all the risk

associated with the grading of coins.

[$ilverHawk]

After reading the thread ATS and reading the posts in this thread it appears that some posters are attempting to redefine ANA grading guidelines..

 

"A coin which is MS-65 from a technical or numerical viewpoint but which is lightly struck can be described as MS-64, MS-63, or some lower grade, without mentioning the weakness; this is the practice of most third-party grading services at present. A weakly struck coin cannot be graded MS-65 or finer. To qualify as a MS-65 a coin must have a fairly sharp strike (but not necessarily a completely full strike.)"

 

An interesting aside is the thought current encountered in the thread ATS that strike is not a major factor in grading. Per the ATS thread strike is now considered to be only one of several equal factors in grading. Sounds like PCGS posters are attempting to rewrite ANA grading standards.

 

Total covering action for a PCGS grading mistake by Don Willis. Pay attention to Mr. Willis on two points. You should have talked to us before posting and it's only a $100 difference.

 

I'm sorry, I thought we as collectors paid TPG s to get it right and that TPG s used the ANA grading standards. Bad assumption on my part.

 

 

 

$ilverHawk

[okbustchaser]

I'm sorry, I thought we as collectors paid TPG s to get it right and that TPG s used the ANA grading standards. Bad assumption on my part.

 

Actually, collectors pay TPGs for an OPINION--something which by definition is always right at the time it is rendered. Whether or not anyone (including the TPG itself) considers it correct at a different point in time is irrelevant to the original estimate.

 

Secondly, to my knowledge no TPG claims to grade to ANA standards. Each has its own grading standards.

 

As for the original post concerning whether or not a TPG should be less lenient with dealers it goes back to the same level of expertise that collectors seem to expect of dealers, ie, that dealers should be expected to know better than the public. This is the same reason many people seem to think that it is perfectly fine to cherrypick a dealer, (Hey, I spent the time to gain the knowledge, If he didn't then tough noogies.) but if that same dealer takes advantage of a collector because he has more knowledge then the dealer is a crook.

 

If collectors are going to hold dealers to a higher standard of expertise why should they be supprised that TPGs do?

[FishyOne]

For those who have not read the entire thread ATS: Rick Snow started it complaining that the coin in question was graded 65+RB! Turned out to be a 64+RB making the whole thread pretty worthless. That coin went for about a grand, slightly under what most would expect w/o seeing the images, only slightly.

[$ilverHawk]

"Actually, collectors pay TPGs for an OPINION--something which by definition is always right at the time it is rendered. Whether or not anyone (including the TPG itself) considers it correct at a different point in time is irrelevant to the original estimate."

 

No, opinions are just that--opinions. By definition an opinion is a subjective evaluation that carries no consequences for it's veracity. What the TPG s are selling is a guaranteed appraisal. Complete with corporate and monetary assurance of the quality of their appraisal.

 

"Secondly, to my knowledge no TPG claims to grade to ANA standards. Each has its own grading standards."

 

You may have missed the last sentence. "Bad assumption on my part." And it is a bad assumption. When a TPG is the "Offical Grader of the ANA" I foolishly thought that ANA grading standards were part of the package.

 

Regarding the original posting on whether or not a TPG should be less lenient with dealers, doesn't it really come down to the fact that a dealer usually trades more often than a collector and should be more familiar with the market grading of the TPG s?

 

Total agreement. The TPG s should be less lenient with dealers based on the fact that dealers should know about the accuracy of the TPG s appraisal and adjust their buying accordingly.

 

$ilverHawk

[Oldtrader3]

Sorry about the wrong poster appellation. My memory for matching poster's and people's names is worsening as old age progresses. I believe that I will just stop trying to do so.

[JStull]

After reading the thread ATS and reading the posts in this thread it appears that some posters are attempting to redefine ANA grading guidelines..

 

"A coin which is MS-65 from a technical or numerical viewpoint but which is lightly struck can be described as MS-64, MS-63, or some lower grade, without mentioning the weakness; this is the practice of most third-party grading services at present. A weakly struck coin cannot be graded MS-65 or finer. To qualify as a MS-65 a coin must have a fairly sharp strike (but not necessarily a completely full strike.)"

 

An interesting aside is the thought current encountered in the thread ATS that strike is not a major factor in grading. Per the ATS thread strike is now considered to be only one of several equal factors in grading. Sounds like PCGS posters are attempting to rewrite ANA grading standards.

 

Total covering action for a PCGS grading mistake by Don Willis. Pay attention to Mr. Willis on two points. You should have talked to us before posting and it's only a $100 difference.

 

I'm sorry, I thought we as collectors paid TPG s to get it right and that TPG s used the ANA grading standards. Bad assumption on my part.

 

 

 

$ilverHawk

 

You pay TPGs for their opinion, nothing more.

[grade it-migration]

After reading the thread ATS and reading the posts in this thread it appears that some posters are attempting to redefine ANA grading guidelines..

 

"A coin which is MS-65 from a technical or numerical viewpoint but which is lightly struck can be described as MS-64, MS-63, or some lower grade, without mentioning the weakness; this is the practice of most third-party grading services at present. A weakly struck coin cannot be graded MS-65 or finer. To qualify as a MS-65 a coin must have a fairly sharp strike (but not necessarily a completely full strike.)"

 

An interesting aside is the thought current encountered in the thread ATS that strike is not a major factor in grading. Per the ATS thread strike is now considered to be only one of several equal factors in grading. Sounds like PCGS posters are attempting to rewrite ANA grading standards.

 

Total covering action for a PCGS grading mistake by Don Willis. Pay attention to Mr. Willis on two points. You should have talked to us before posting and it's only a $100 difference.

 

I'm sorry, I thought we as collectors paid TPG s to get it right and that TPG s used the ANA grading standards. Bad assumption on my part.

 

 

 

$ilverHawk

 

You pay TPGs for their opinion, nothing more.

 

 

So we have reverted back to the problem that caused the TPG to be founded

 

Coins with unacceptable grades in certified holder, with a guarantee that only guarantees their opinion. The cost to question their opinion is $25 plus shipping. If you disagree with their results you might have to travel to Orange County CA to make your case. The best guarantee in the business?

 

In bulk grading there is a sliding cost to encapsulate. My cost when I was submitting thousands of coins were..

 

$6 for ms65 and lower

$8 for a ms66

$15 for a ms67 and pr 68

$18 for a pr 69

$20 for a pr70...

 

There appears to be no incentive to give their opinion on coins at higher grades.

 

I salute A-Mark for submitting hockey pucks with no grade only uncirculated label this seems to me the way that most bulk moderns should be encapsulated. If they wish to be graded, they be done on the ANA standards which can be found on the PCGS web site.

Titled "How US coins should be graded"

 

http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article23.chtml

 

The ATS post today on the Hockey puck grading by A-Mark

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=805050

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JStull]

After reading the thread ATS and reading the posts in this thread it appears that some posters are attempting to redefine ANA grading guidelines..

 

"A coin which is MS-65 from a technical or numerical viewpoint but which is lightly struck can be described as MS-64, MS-63, or some lower grade, without mentioning the weakness; this is the practice of most third-party grading services at present. A weakly struck coin cannot be graded MS-65 or finer. To qualify as a MS-65 a coin must have a fairly sharp strike (but not necessarily a completely full strike.)"

 

An interesting aside is the thought current encountered in the thread ATS that strike is not a major factor in grading. Per the ATS thread strike is now considered to be only one of several equal factors in grading. Sounds like PCGS posters are attempting to rewrite ANA grading standards.

 

Total covering action for a PCGS grading mistake by Don Willis. Pay attention to Mr. Willis on two points. You should have talked to us before posting and it's only a $100 difference.

 

I'm sorry, I thought we as collectors paid TPG s to get it right and that TPG s used the ANA grading standards. Bad assumption on my part.

 

 

 

$ilverHawk

 

You pay TPGs for their opinion, nothing more.

 

 

So we have reverted back to the problem that caused the TPG to be in founded

 

Coins with unacceptable grades in certified holder, with a guarantee that only guarantees their opinion. The cost to question their opinion is $25 plus shipping. If you disagree with their results you might have to travel to Orange County CA to make your case. The best guarantee in the business?

 

In bulk grading there is a sliding cost to encapsulate. My cost when I was submitting thousands of coins were..

 

$6 for ms65 and lower

$8 for a ms66

$15 for a ms67 and pr 68

$18 for a pr 69

$20 for a pr70...

 

There appears to be no incentive to give their opinion on coins at higher grades.

 

I salute A-Mark for submitting hockey pucks with no grade only uncirculated label this seems to me the way that most bulk moderns should be encapsulated. If they wish to be graded, they be done on the ANA standards which can be found on the PCGS web site.

Titled "How US coins should be graded"

 

http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article23.chtml

 

The ATS post today on the Hockey puck grading by A-Mark

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=805050

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To back my point up that you're paying for the opinion of the TPGs I take from Q. David Bowers' A guide Book of Morgan Silver Dollars.

 

In one of the chapters, A well known, and respected, numismatist performed a test at an annual coin show.

 

The test consisted of 10 grades of the same coin, from the same mint, of the same year, and same denomination.

 

The 10 grades were MS60 - MS70.

 

All 10 coins were graded by the same TPG.

 

At the show, this numismatist, and I forget his name and haven't read QDB's book in quite some time, covered the front label with masking tape to hide the grade of each coin.

 

Each coin was then numbered, randomly, and the grade from the label listed next to it. Only he knew what each coin graded.

 

He then asked 5 or 6 well known numismatists from the audience, to inspect each coin, and write down their thought on what each coin grades.

 

If I remember correctly, the best out of the 5 numismatists who came the closest guessed 3 out of 10 correctly.

 

As I stated, and firmly believe, you're paying for the opinion of a grader at a TPG.

 

Is it perfection?

 

Absolutely not.

 

And it seems to me that the majority of people who submit coins on a regular basis, are never happy with the results from the TPG and crack it, or just submitt it in the holder to another TPG.

 

Either way, it's a paid opinion, no perfection in the system, and can vary from one grader to another.

[grade it-migration]

The real question from this study would be:

 

How consistent were the 5 or 6 world class graders grades from each other..and then how far were they apart from the TPG.... Following up on this study you mention in DQB book.

 

I believe it takes more than a few seconds to grade a coin. ( I am sure the world class graders on this test, took more than a few seconds)

 

It only takes a few seconds to give an opinion...how long does it take you to properly grade a coin? That is the question.

 

 

[Conder101]

To back my point up that you're paying for the opinion of the TPGs I take from Q. David Bowers' A guide Book of Morgan Silver Dollars.

 

In one of the chapters, A well known, and respected, numismatist performed a test at an annual coin show.

 

The test consisted of 10 grades of the same coin, from the same mint, of the same year, and same denomination.

 

The 10 grades were MS60 - MS70.

 

All 10 coins were graded by the same TPG.

 

At the show, this numismatist, and I forget his name and haven't read QDB's book in quite some time, covered the front label with masking tape to hide the grade of each coin.

 

Each coin was then numbered, randomly, and the grade from the label listed next to it. Only he knew what each coin graded.

 

He then asked 5 or 6 well known numismatists from the audience, to inspect each coin, and write down their thought on what each coin grades.

 

If I remember correctly, the best out of the 5 numismatists who came the closest guessed 3 out of 10 correctly.

Remember the PCGS "World Series of Grading"? They basically did the same thing. Two classes, collectors, and professionals & former Graders. Naturally the Professionals and Former Graders did better, but the absolute best only scored 80%. (The owner of Newmistrust.) Most of the participants, including the professionals and former graders scored in the 60 - 70% range, or worse.

[PerryHall]

To back my point up that you're paying for the opinion of the TPGs I take from Q. David Bowers' A guide Book of Morgan Silver Dollars.

 

In one of the chapters, A well known, and respected, numismatist performed a test at an annual coin show.

 

The test consisted of 10 grades of the same coin, from the same mint, of the same year, and same denomination.

 

The 10 grades were MS60 - MS70.

 

All 10 coins were graded by the same TPG.

 

At the show, this numismatist, and I forget his name and haven't read QDB's book in quite some time, covered the front label with masking tape to hide the grade of each coin.

 

Each coin was then numbered, randomly, and the grade from the label listed next to it. Only he knew what each coin graded.

 

He then asked 5 or 6 well known numismatists from the audience, to inspect each coin, and write down their thought on what each coin grades.

 

If I remember correctly, the best out of the 5 numismatists who came the closest guessed 3 out of 10 correctly.

Remember the PCGS "World Series of Grading"? They basically did the same thing. Two classes, collectors, and professionals & former Graders. Naturally the Professionals and Former Graders did better, but the absolute best only scored 80%. (The owner of Newmistrust.) Most of the participants, including the professionals and former graders scored in the 60 - 70% range, or worse.

 

Isn't it "Numistrust" or were you thinking of "New mistrust"? Don't forget that just because someone knows how to grade accurately does mean that he always does so. Many dealers have two grading standards for grading coins depending on whether they are buying or selling.