NGC Named Official Grading Service of the PNG

[Numbers-migration]

Ummmmm... What difference does this make? I mean really?

[Leothelion]

Really?

 

Leo

[James_OldeTowne]

((( I've had more than one well know dealers tell me that they'd never post on those forums since they'd get bashed no matter how upstanding of a dealer they were. )))

or worse yet, banned!

 

James

[davidlawrence-migration]

Hi All,

 

I've just read this thread (or as much of it as I can handle on this topic at this point) for the first time. I thank you all foremost for being a rational alternative to the group across the street. Generally, I am an opinionated individual and love a good debate as much as the next guy, but it's a hornet's nest over there. A few folks are spoiling it for the rest, but I guess that's ok with management...

 

Anyway, I'm exhausted with this topic at this point. I think enough has been said and time will tell whether this was really worth all the discussion. As a PNG Board member, I felt like this was an easy decision and clear cut. I also beleive that anyone else among you in the meeting would have agreed. This was a cut-and-dry decision and there is simply no evidence that anyone leaked bid information, etc. That's preposterous. The real facts are are that the bids aren't nearly as close as the gossip-mongers suggest. NGC's bid was much stronger so it was an easy decision. But it's not right to discuss these details unless you want to get them from HRH -- he seems to be forthcoming on this issue.

 

I look forward to joining more debates on this board. If I may suggest anything that will keep this board a better place to chat, it's this: be aware that those of us that own coin companies take our businesses very seriously (like our children) and careless comments can be damaging and cost you the participation of the most prolific players.

 

Biased, I know, but the only dealers left on the "other" chat room do so disingenuously. They don't dare speak their minds without fear of the conspiracy theorists. Look what happened to me when I simply explained the PNG position. All of a sudden I'm a capitalist scumbag with a major agenda...

[TomB]

Welcome, John!

 

The 1913 Barber that we were writing about the other day has arrived and is a very nice coin. Thanks!

 

 

[Hoot]

Thanks for coming over here John and taking the time to post. I look forward to your additions to this board!

 

Hoot

[Android]

Glad to hear from you John. I look forward to hearing from you more. I wish more dealers would post about their experiences and knowledge concerning our hobby. I can understand reluctance to participate, but it may be different over here.

[MarkFeld]

Biased, I know, but the only dealers left on the "other" chat room do so disingenuously. They don't dare speak their minds without fear of the conspiracy theorists

John, no wonder more dealers don't post over here - if you are going to talk about them like that. I will try not to take your comment personally, but either way, I will not delete my post over "there" where I mentioned that you had been treated very harshly and unfairly.

[registrynut-migration]

Post deleted by registrynut

[IrishMike]

John welcome to the boards. There is a lot of noise across the street alot of it from folks who take out their daily frustrations on the boards over there. Most of them that attack without any provocation seem to do so because they possess very little knowledge about the industry or quite frankly about how to run any business. Unfortunately some of them tend to be voluminous posters.

 

There is another segment that is there to protect their investment in registry coins i.e. PCGS slabbed coins.

 

Overall its a pretty good bunch of collectors and dealers. You can predict over there who will flame whom about what and right now for some reason there seems to be a lot of that noise. Hopefully these boards will continue to be informative and for the most part free of the personal attacks that take away from legitimate discussion about our hobby.

[gmarguli]

it's a hornet's nest over there. A few folks are spoiling it for the rest, but I guess that's ok with management...

 

Didn't management start it?

 

Glad to see you over here posting. It's nice when well known dealers come over here to post. We have the occasional one drop by every now and again, but they don't seem to want to stay here. They prefer the personal attacks across the street and to support a company that treats them like dirt.

 

 

Since you are a PNG Board member, would you mind letting us know what it takes to file a complaint with the PNG. When I read David Hall's comments that suggested there was something unethical going on with the PNG and NGC during the bidding process, I felt that clearly his comments violated PNG Code of Ethics:

 

Rule 11. To respect my contracts with fellow PNG members, whether written or oral.

 

Rule 12. To respect my fellow members' contracts with third parties and not interfere with same.

 

Rule 14: To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage.

 

Can a third party file the complaint or does it have to be the harmed party? Would someone, let's say me, be able to file the complaint? After all, I own hundreds of NGC graded coins so his comments could have indirectly hurt my financial interest in these coins were others to believe his comments.

 

I can provide a screen capture of his original comments before he edited them out as evidence.

[EVillageProwler]

I think John was speaking broad brush when he talks of the disingenuousness of the dealers over there. I don't think he meant it to include Feld or Sperber.

 

EVP

[chinook]

I think John was speaking broad brush when he talks of the disingenuousness of the dealers over there. I don't think he meant it to include Feld or Sperber.

 

EVP

 

While I dont want to speak for John I would concur with this statement. I have had several dealings with DLRC and find them to be upstanding numismatic citizens.

 

John, I felt your post across the street was presented in a very professional and unbiased manner and you were unjustly attacked. I usually respond to such indignant remarks by saying "I have been called much worse by people much better." That usually brings out their best.

 

I hope you become a regular contributor to this forum as I am always searching for opinions and advice from those who know much more about this hobby than I.

 

BTW--I wish Mark Feld would post more often over here.

[gmarguli]

I think John was speaking broad brush when he talks of the disingenuousness of the dealers over there. I don't think he meant it to include Feld or Sperber.

 

I do kind of wonder why two dealers who have had some public battles with PCGS/DH continue to post over there.

[jtryka]

Wow! I can't believe I read that thread all the way through! I can only say a couple of things, first impression is that this is really making a mountain out of a mole hill, as I seriously doubt most collectors or dealers buy either company's graded coins based on the ANA or PNG endorsements. I just don't see it as important. For NGC, congratulations, and for PNG, even bigger congratulations as you seem to be the biggest winner in this, getting additional funding for your mandate. I did appreciate John (from DLRC) and his comments, I thought they added quite a bit to my overall understanding of the issue.

 

The second thing I would add, is that I cannot for the life of me understand what David Hall is thinking (or if he is thinking) when he posts comments on a public message board. In the current environment of Reg. FD and Sarbanes-Oxley, an officer of a public company is literally taking his life in his hands by doing such. Martha Stewart is a blip on the radar, there are people from other companies like Tyco, Enron and Worldcom that are face 20 years or more in prison as we speak. A senior management member of a publicly traded company shooting off his mouth on a public message board is just asking for trouble. As an analyst, I was forbidden from posting on any stock message board (and there are a lot of them), and if I posted even an unrelated comment, I could have been fired and even could have lost my securities licenses (or at least been censured). Mr. Hall should know better, or at least the CLCT legal department should inform him of the implications of his actions. That is very scary.

[Leothelion]

The second thing I would add, is that I cannot for the life of me understand what David Hall is thinking (or if he is thinking) when he posts comments on a public message board.

 

It all has to do with shifting the collectors and dealers by the lures of consistency to create fresh funds for the investors, whomever they might have their holdings placed! In other words, PCGS is growing stale, it's NGC's turn! To keep it interesting, so to speak! JMO

 

Leo

[jom]

A senior management member of a publicly traded company shooting off his mouth on a public message board is just asking for trouble.

 

Funny, I said the EXACT same thing. The man not only disclosed on the message board PCGS's bid but NGC's as well. Truly "amazing".

 

jom

[davidlawrence-migration]

Just to clarify, I was not pointing a finger at anyone (specifically not Feld or Sperber, who I consider good friends). My "disingenuous" comment was pointed more at the dealer representation in general on the PCGS chat board that almost all I seen stated panders to the audience because the culture there is so fearful. Believe me, I'm in the same boat. I learned early on to never editorialize and state pure fact. Anything more was grounds for vilification. Who can be honest in that environment? On second thought, "disingenuous" was probably not the right word....

 

In response to the following:

 

 

Since you are a PNG Board member, would you mind letting us know what it takes to file a complaint with the PNG. When I read David Hall's comments that suggested there was something unethical going on with the PNG and NGC during the bidding process, I felt that clearly his comments violated PNG Code of Ethics:

 

Rule 11. To respect my contracts with fellow PNG members, whether written or oral.

 

Rule 12. To respect my fellow members' contracts with third parties and not interfere with same.

 

Rule 14: To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage.

 

Can a third party file the complaint or does it have to be the harmed party? Would someone, let's say me, be able to file the complaint? After all, I own hundreds of NGC graded coins so his comments could have indirectly hurt my financial interest in these coins were others to believe his comments.

 

I can provide a screen capture of his original comments before he edited them out as evidence.

 

If you are a PNG member, you can certainly launch a grievance. If not, I think the proper channel would be to work with one on this matter. Bob Brueggeman is the Execuative Director and he can be reached at 760-728-1300 (PST). Bob's a great E.D. and he can personally answer to the protocols in this situation. As a board member, I'd rather see a (non-board) member bring this to the board for review. I'm only in my second term so this is a new one for me....

 

-John

 

p.s. I'm not exactly sure what was edited from my posting on the CU board, but Mr. Hall contacted me directly and told me that I was not allowed to post the web address of the PNG (www.pngdealers.com) or I would be kicked off. I told him if that was the case, then take it off my post to which he said, "I already did." I really don't understand the animosity surrounding this issue at all. I feel like Rodney King and just want to say, "can't we all get along." I mean really....

[spy88]

David...

 

First off, thanks for coming on and posting your thoughts. At least here, no one (IMHO) would edit your posts!

 

To think a man in DH position would first post such a statement as he did...then edit it, then edit both of Johns posts was too much for me. Don't know if you saw/read what I posted, but I PO'ed a few people by pointing out these "facts", comparing the whole affair to Watergate by calling it Hallgate. Most were just interested in flaming or ignoring me instead of questioning these tactics as I was.

 

Anyway, it has or soon will blow over...but never forgotten. I for one can almost guarantee you that nothing you say on this forum will ever get you flamed or edited or banned! In fact, I'm sure I speak for all the members here,

 

WELCOME AND HOPE YOU STICK AROUND!!!

 

David;)

[Leothelion]

but Mr. Hall contacted me directly and told me that I was not allowed to post the web address of the PNG (www.pngdealers.com) or I would be kicked off.

 

Sounds like he's still throwing a baby-fit over there, "WAA GOO GOO GA GA, WE CAN'T BE PNG'S OFFICIAL GRADING SERVICE THEN WE CAN'T ALLOW ANYONE TO POST THEIR ADDRESS, WAA BOO HOO HOO! WE ALLOW ANYONE TO POST THEIR WEBSITES AND AUCTION WEBSITES BUT NOT PNG'S, BOO HOO HOO! WE LOST, WE CAN'T HAVE THAT! OR I WILL BOOT

YOU! DO YOU WANT ME TO BOOT YOU? I'LL DO IT, YOU KNOW! THAT'S ALL

I HAVE THE POWER TO DO ANYMORE! I'LL BOOT YOU IF YOU DON'T PLAY BY MY RULES! THIS IS MY PLAYGROUND AND I'LL BOOT YOU!

 

Leo

[jom]

 

 

jom

[K6AZ]

Wow, this is incredible. I have been trying to avoid the issue because quite frankly I don't care who endorses who. I would have taken a statement like this with a grain of salt if it had come from many other sources. But coming from you John, I am simply amazed. I know there has been some interesting editing and thread pulling over there, but this really takes the cake.