Snowy Saturday Guess the Grade and Overton! My FAVORITE Date!

[jtryka]

Ok, it's snowing like a banshee here, but that didn't stop me from heading out to the local coins show today! And when I got there one of my favorite dealers had a coin for me too look at, and needless to say I ended up bringing her home! So many cool things about this one, for starters, it's my favorite bust half date, 1809, add to that the fact that it's struck about 10% off center and you have a winner in my book! Anyhow, it's in an NGC slab, and even though this one looks more improperly cleaned than the last 1809 I submitted which came back with a net grade, this one has no qualifiers on the grade. So have at it, take a guess on what NGC thought the grade was as well as the Overton marriage!

 

[TomB]

It is interesting to learn the favorite date for a collector of a series. Might I ask why 1809 is your favorite? The edge, perhaps?

[MBA101]

Looks like a 103, and because of strike it looks like a 45 to me. The off center strike is cool

[RUSS BEGA]

I love a nice orig. Bust Half! great lookin coin, i really need to brush up on my overton numbers!

[jtryka]

Tom,

 

I think there are a number of reasons why 1809 is my favorite date. The different edges are one aspect, but quite frankly they are way down on the list. Personally when it comes to edges, I think the experimental edges of the early 1830s are far more interesting!

 

I guess the main reasons are the historical interest (this was the birthyear of Abraham Lincoln and the year the Illinois Territory was established (a little historical irony in that the "Land of Lincoln" was born the same year as the man!). Then there are the coin reasons, this is the 3rd year in this series, and although you'd think they'd have the hang of it by now, there were still sort of working on this series. The first year 1807 was sort of a transition year with the draped and capped bust being minted. The 1808 was a year of relatively few die marriages and an overdate, but by 1809 they were starting to get the hang of it. There are still many that have horribly weak strikes (an even some offset ones ) so that it's quite easy to find very nice examples of the date that many would grade very low, but in fact are very well preserved. Finally, it's the first year with enough die marriages that are not exceedingly expensive so that it's possible and fun to try to collect them!

[jesbroken]

Sorry, but my screen leaves a little to be desired on this coin for attribution diagnostics. I can't make out a lot of items. I feel this coin would be an O-115(about 80%). The lack of feathers and hair detail make me limit the grade to an F15. Hope I'm not too far off.

Jim

[okbustchaser]

Jeff, the 1809 is one of my favorite years also--for many of the same reasons. This 103 I would call a strong VF; with the proper amount of luster it might sneak into XF territory.

[jesbroken]

Sorry Jeff. Bad call on my part.

Jim

[jtryka]

Jim, never worry about rendering an opinion! I've had many opinions that turned out to be better on my second, third or fourth try! Besides, it's how you can learn, and as I mentioned above, many of these early dates are very weakly struck, so what may at first appear to be wear may in fact be a poor strike! Now once you get to the later dates in the 1820s and 1830s such lack of detail is usually a sign of wear and not a weak strike. And don't worry, my feelings won't be hurt by you guessing a low grade or any for that matter, it's part of the fun of these early dates, some people have a low opinion while others are much higher. I just usually hope my opinion is high when I am buying while the seller's opnion is low!

[MarkFeld]

Jeff, the 1809 is one of my favorite years also--for many of the same reasons. This 103 I would call a strong VF; with the proper amount of luster it might sneak into XF territory.

It looks XF45 to me. And a VF grade would very much surprise me.

[Keigwin]

It's a little challenging to guess the grade from the photos because there's not much contrast. But my guess would be XF40.

 

Even the TPG's can be far apart on these early CBH's. Here's an 1808/7 CBH on ebay (shameful plug, apologies) that NGC graded AU50 and PCGS knocked it down to XF40. Who got it right?

Lance.

[physics-fan3.14]

It's a little challenging to guess the grade from the photos because there's not much contrast. But my guess would be XF40.

 

Even the TPG's can be far apart on these early CBH's. Here's an 1808/7 CBH on ebay (shameful plug, apologies) that NGC graded AU50 and PCGS knocked it down to XF40. Who got it right?

Lance.

 

Neither. I'd split the difference and call that a 45.

[jesbroken]

Jeff,

Is their a book available regarding grading early halves, or a really good reference article by anyone that you would recommend? I have a few reference articles but they all show 1830 and up as examples for their grading diagnostics and no early Halves. I have looked at over 30 pics of F-VF-XF 1809 Bust halves sold on HA graded by both NGC and PCGS and remain confused about the grading diagnostics as they seem to vary by the same grading company on different coins. Especially when it comes to feathers in the eagle's right wing and its neck. Also, the hair diagnostics seem to vary quite a bit on 1809 coins by the same grading company. One will grade VF25 and have more detail than the next graded coin at XF40. Some XF 40's look like mid AU coins. I understand the difference between opposing companies but not by the same company. This does not seem near as hit and miss with post teen coins. I would love to spend a couple of years going to coin shows just to view thousands of coins, but cannot--pretty much stuck here in Southern WV.

Thank you,

Jim

[Keigwin]

I know this question wasn't directed to me but I would recommend you pick up a copy of Bust Half Fever by Edgar W. Souders.

 

It won't teach you step by step grading but it will answer a ton of questions about CBH's and explain a lot about strike characteristics, varieties, rarities, etc. All in a year by year approach. Fascinating reading. Hard to put down.

Lance.

[jtryka]

Jim,

 

The Overton book is essential, and although it does not give grading tips it has lots of good info. Beyond that, one of the best sources of info I've found is on the web at Coinzip. There they have threads for each die marriage with photos of many grades, info on strike characteristics and just all sorts of great info and many of the most knowledgable collectors who share their knowledge and experience. Check it out: http://coinzip.proboards.com/

 

Hope this helps you, I know it's helped me a lot in my collecting!

[$ilverHawk]

I'll go with VF35 and O-101.

 

$ilverHawk

[$ilverHawk]

Definitely an EF coin. 40-45 coin flip. Definitely not AU.

 

$ilverHawk

[$ilverHawk]

Jason,

 

I just noticed your new Avatar. Now where did I see that?

 

Great FUN pickup.

 

$ilverHawk

[okbustchaser]

Jeff, the 1809 is one of my favorite years also--for many of the same reasons. This 103 I would call a strong VF; with the proper amount of luster it might sneak into XF territory.

It looks XF45 to me. And a VF grade would very much surprise me.

 

A VF label would be somewhat suprising to me also. That doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't a VF coin, though.

 

The O-103 is normally one of the best struck DMs for the year; only the 105 is on average better. Even though slightly off-center the detail (at least in the pics) looks too flat to be all a strike issue.

[Raybo55]

I'll go with VF35 and O-101.

 

$ilverHawk

 

I agree with $H (thumbs u

[jesbroken]

Thanks, keigwin, for chiming in, I have Bust Half Fever and I also have The Overton Book. I guess I will just have to reread them and draw from their expertise about the individual coins.

Thanks all,

Jim

[jtryka]

Ok all, NGC attributed this as an O-103 and I agree with that. They graded it as a VF-30 which is quite conservative given that I paid close to XF money for it! And for those of you keeping track I have heard opinions ranging from Fine to AU for this one!

[Dudley the 1st]

What you paid for the coin has absolutely no bearing on what any TPG would grade the coin , if purchased " Raw " . I'm not surprised by the varying grade assessments you received . Even the TPG's more often than not disagree with each other, sometimes even two or three grades , depending upon the series , issue , variety etc.

[Dudley the 1st]

After viewing your photo's , I would have to agree with you on that the assigned grade is extremely conservative as I apply my grading skills. What if any is the FMV differences in an NGC VS PCGS example both in VF and XF ? I think the coin is worthy of a good bump off that .

[jtryka]

The Numismedia guide lists a VF at $180 and an XF at $390, the PCGS guide list a VF-30 at $165 and an XF-40 at $375. And although you are correct that "What you paid for the coin has absolutely no bearing on what any TPG would grade the coin," what a TPG graded a coin should have a bearing on what price is paid for a coin, unless both buyer and seller agreed that the TPG was wrong and traded accordingly.

[physics-fan3.14]

I'm guessing the VF-30 was a silent net grade down due to the cleaning. That coin is borderline market acceptable in my book, and honestly I would not have paid a strong price for it. VF-30 seems about right, if you ask me. Remember, the TPGs value a coin, not grade it.