MS70 causes blue toning on copper?

[James_OldeTowne]

Okay here's a question no one has posed yet - let say you have a blue copper cent and want to remove the blue toning - does anyone have any suggestions on how that might be accomplished ?

A blue copper that is so from being MS70ed? or that has naturally acquired blue patina?

 

Or both ?

[TonerGuy]

A blue copper that is so from being MS70ed? or that has naturally acquired blue patina?

 

Or both ?

 

Well its a 1931-S MS coin that ANACs graded as MS60 details AT...(probably a MS64BN)

 

From the toned copper I have seen this one is probably AT. It has the look of an MS70 bath. The toning doesnt get into the spaces between the smallest letters on the obverse and reverse. The areas next to the rims are lighter and it has a pink/blue/purple look to it sitting on top of a light brown patina.

 

It might be NT but I have a feeling someone tried to take a $300 coin and turn it into a $800 coin. Risky and stupid but I got it cheap and would like to conserve it. Its a key date and I figured I would be at least doing a good deed by doing so.

 

I dont even know if NCS can do anything with this. Someone in another thread offered BR as a solution to counter act the MS70 but I have never used BR.

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

[James_OldeTowne]

A blue copper that is so from being MS70ed? or that has naturally acquired blue patina?

 

Or both ?

 

Well its a 1931-S MS coin that ANACs graded as MS60 details AT...(probably a MS64BN)

 

From the toned copper I have seen this one is probably AT. It has the look of an MS70 bath. The toning doesnt get into the spaces between the smallest letters on the obverse and reverse. The areas next to the rims are lighter and it has a pink/blue/purple look to it sitting on top of a light brown patina.

 

It might be NT but I have a feeling someone tried to take a $300 coin and turn it into a $800 coin. Risky and stupid but I got it cheap and would like to conserve it. Its a key date and I figured I would be at least doing a good deed by doing so.

 

I dont even know if NCS can do anything with this. Someone in another thread offered BR as a solution to counter act the MS70 but I have never used BR.

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

Interesting question. I may pursue this as "Part B" of my previous experiment.

[gmarguli]

Okay here's a question no one has posed yet - let say you have a blue copper cent and want to remove the blue toning - does anyone have any suggestions on how that might be accomplished ?

 

Blue Ribbon or Coin Care will work to hide the blue or pink from dippings. A camel hair brush can also do the same. So can other oils.

[Hard Times]

Okay, then one can pose the question, if MS70 did not cause the blue toning, then what does blue ribbon or acetone do when applied to blue toned copper? If nothing, is that an indication or test of whether it is MS70 produced? I will definitely add that to my series of tests.

 

As Jerry Bobbe pointed out in a recent CTCC journal, do not use camel hair brushes on AU to MS coins, it causes hairlines and ruins the coin for eternity, he noted that this is a bad recommendation that certain EAC members claims as a good thing but actually is not.

[Keigwin]

I don't think BR or acetone will do anything.

 

Acetone will not remove real tarnish. Organic tarnish, yes. (I have a 20-cent piece and a sad story I could share.)

 

BR is pretty benign. It's just a conditioner and I don't believe it will do much at all, regardless of the source of toning.

Lance.

[Hard Times]

'fun' with chemistry....... I look forward to getting in the lab, have selected around 50 AU and BU wheaties, all of which have various looks/toning to them, including a few that appears to have shades of blue under and intermingled with browns. I think there is this xylol stuff I bought from rod burress to try out after using MS70, but I think it is just a solvent, we will see.

[Keigwin]

Xylene (commercial name Xylol) is a very good solvent for removing organic crud.

 

It's commonly used by collectors of large cents which often have gunk obliterating variety diagnostics. Safe stuff and good to have in your coin supplies cabinet.

Lance.

[leeg]

Xylene (commercial name Xylol) is a very good solvent for removing organic crud. Lance.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One never knows what may be hiding under the lacquer.

[Keigwin]

Man, that's a stunner, Lee! Nice going.

Lance.

[Hard Times]

I finally found the thread that was referred to earlier in this thread where MS70 effects to copper by turning it blue were tested by James Early:

 

Previous CS Thread on MS70 - see James Early experiments

 

Some important conclusions:

 

1. pH of MS70 may be around 10.5, not 7 as manufacturer suggests

 

2. Likely contains an alkaline hyrdoxide

 

3. So oxidizing and high pH, POTENTIALLY possible to react and oxidize a metal surface

 

4. James experiments unequivocally show that not all copper coin surfaces turn to blue/violet when MS70 is applied

 

5. So is it possible that what some argue, where MS70 strips some surface material to show what is underneath is equally as reasonable as the argument that blue toning is the result of reacting with MS70. Maybe both are equally possible depending on conditions of the surfaces of the individual copper coins.

 

6. Blue toning on copper exists without MS70, one persons AT blue toning is another persons NT toning and vice versa. So unless one actually can witness the application of MS70 to a coin with direct resulting blue toning, it is hard to conclude AT in many cases.

 

7. The buck is still out there on MS70. We need to reproduce James' experiments and bolster them with hard data, and then compare directly with toning on copper that is clearly not associated with MS70 cleaning/conservation. Need compositional data.

 

Like I said, I have access to SEMs and XRDs at work. They cost money to run so it will take time. This is worth pursuing. If anyone has a blue copper that can verify as not being produced by MS70 that they can lend for the cause at some point, PM me and let's see what can be arranged. No damage will occur to the coin, but it will have to be raw.

 

 

 

 

[robec1347]

Since testing shows that maybe it will or maybe it won't turn copper blue, I'm pretty certain that I wouldn't gamble on cleaning my expensive copper with MS70. Not worth the risk.

[Hard Times]

Bob, unless there is demonstrable proof that one is 'removing' something and 'bringing out' the underlying toning, you are correct. But what if one is actually removing what may be called gunk or something 'on' the surfaces? Then what is being done may be considered as 'conservation' and hence enhancing of its originality. But then again, even if this is so, there may be philosophical reasons to not bring out the original toning. Need hard data.....

[Raybo55]

I think this coin was 70'ed (and yes it's mine)

 

 

[Hard Times]

Well I am back from traveling and have MS70 on order. Here is what I am going to do, if anyone has any suggestions please let me know. I am working on the hypothesis that A - MS70 causes bluish toning on coppers, or B - MS70 removes surface material and reveals toning present underneath.

 

I will:

 

1. Measure the pH of MS70, the manufacturer claims it has a pH of 7 and is inert. I found 1 report that claims a pH of 10, which would make it a reactive oxidant.

 

2. Do an ICPMS analysis for composition of MS70 to find what the cations and major anions are present in it. Is there Na for example? Once we know what is in it, we can then explore what chemical reactions may or may not take place.

 

3. Apply MS70 under several different conditions on exactly 1 half of the surfaces of several lincoln cent picked out in varying degrees of visual toning and grunge. Photos of before and after. Depending on the outcomes, I might sacrifice a couple large cents in AU grades I have.

 

4. Do a quantitative analyses of the compositions of the surfaces of the specimens used in the experiment using an SEM. Since we will have only half of each surface conserved with MS70, we have before and after compositional changes.

 

Depending on the outcome, I may not report the results here but instead write an article for a major numismatic publication. This might be alot of work, there is going to be some costs involved using the instruments, so I will want to try to recover some of these costs.

 

Why am I doing this? Everything I have heard about the claims about MS70 are simply observations and there are clearly two possible reasons for the 'blue' toning as noted above. The numismatic community has to know what may be AT versus NT using something like this. Alot of issues on the values and the states of the conserved coins are at stake. We need quantification of the issue in controlled experiments.

 

Again, please let me know if you have any suggestions for the experiments.

[physics-fan3.14]

I would recommend performing this on several different compositions of copper alloys - brass, bronze, copper, including the pure copper of modern zinc cents.

[messydesk]

Should be an interesting experiment.

 

Since one of your hypotheses (or product claims) is that it removes surface material and reveals toning present underneath, you'll want to show that it removes only surface material and nothing else and leaves nothing behind. Test this on brilliant (perhaps by means of a preparatory chemical peel) and toned Lincolns (colorful and brown, assuming there are detectably different chemical makeups of each surface) that have been cleansed with a known effective solvent like acetone to see if once the surface material is gone, MS70 truly has no effect on the coin.

 

Test the differences between treated and untreated coins or coin halves, when you later attempt to AT them in an oven. A consistent difference in appearance will tell you that MS70 affected the reaction that would have otherwise taken place. Test the effect of various rinses after treatment, before AT'ing.

 

While it would be interesting to see what the coin sniffer ATS says about these in various stages of rinsing and aging, but you'd probably have to give them rights to the article and demonstrate you're not a coin doc on a test run before they'll talk to you. Even then, they'd be reluctant to divulge that you've determined a threshold of detection for a treated coin that you are able to demonstrate, through AT'ing, is more likely to turn in a holder.

 

I don't see a need to sacrifice AU large cents. Establish that they are equivalent to AU copper Lincoln Memorial cents or, if you need size, pre-decimal British pence. If you really don't want them, sell them to help fund the experiment.

 

(Edit: I hadn't looked at your first experiment, so I see you covered a bunch of this already.)

[Conder101]

You might try it on a couple of wire brushed pre-82 lincoln cents as well. The wire brushing is to make sure you are removing any surface contaminants and you are testing bare metal. Then if there is a change we will know it is reacting with the metal itself and not any toning compounds or surface contaminates. One of the problems with testing coins it that every coin has had a different life. It has bee expose to different things and has different compounds on its surfaces. For that reason no test can be completely duplicated. it can also explain why you can use MS70 on several coins with no ill effects and then suddenly have one that has a bad reaction. There was something different about or on the surface.

[Hard Times]

Hey messy and Conder, good feedback thanks, I will take it into account as I design the experiment. One question you might answer is, the fact that the alloys in lincoln cents are different than those for earlier issues, will that make a difference? I just don't know the answer to that, this is why I might take one AU large cent and see what happens. I have an ideal candidate, it is not a rare one so no worries. I also have a couple messed with half cents that I bought off ebay raw before I knew what I was doing. I can't honestly sell them and they are valueless anyway now, so these might be able to be included.

[thecoinczar]

I have read the thread on MS70 as well as James Early's experiment on ten processed copper coins and I find this to be fascinating! I never knew about MS70 and am most likely going to buy a bottle of it and experiment on my own. Do you know where I can get a hold of some of this mysterious cleanser?

[Hard Times]

I got mine in ebay, just do an online search and you will find it, plenty sell it.

 

Welcome to the boards!

[gmarguli]

I have read the thread on MS70 as well as James Early's experiment on ten processed copper coins and I find this to be fascinating! I never knew about MS70 and am most likely going to buy a bottle of it and experiment on my own.

 

I find it ironic that Mark Feld is largely responsible for all these blue coppers.

[Coindude]

I find it ironic that Mark Feld is largely responsible for all these blue coppers.

Care to explain that comment?

[gmarguli]

I find it ironic that Mark Feld is largely responsible for all these blue coppers.

Care to explain that comment?

 

Sure. It was well known that MS70 could affect the color of copper. One day Mark Feld learns this and posts how awful it is on the forums. He condemns these actions. Since then hundreds, if not thousands of people have learned how to work copper. People who never touched a coin cleaner in their life are now suddenly buying bottles of MS70 and working copper.

 

And every time someone makes a negative comment about MS70 and copper, this debate starts all over again and even more people learn about the benefits of using MS70 on copper.

[MarkFeld]

I find it ironic that Mark Feld is largely responsible for all these blue coppers.

Care to explain that comment?

 

Sure. It was well known that MS70 could affect the color of copper. One day Mark Feld learns this and posts how awful it is on the forums. He condemns these actions. Since then hundreds, if not thousands of people have learned how to work copper. People who never touched a coin cleaner in their life are now suddenly buying bottles of MS70 and working copper.

 

And every time someone makes a negative comment about MS70 and copper, this debate starts all over again and even more people learn about the benefits of using MS70 on copper.

Maybe you have access to secret statistics that others, including myself, do not. But my observations (based on my attendance at most major shows, viewing of many major auctions and perusing EBay listings and various coin websites) are that fewer (not more) examples of such coins have been available for sale in major TPG holders during the past few years.

 

I am hoping that you will answer this honestly and sincerely - do you truly see more or fewer MS70'd copper coins in major TPG holders these days, compared to when I spoke out publicly on that subject? And whatever your answer, based on your personal experiences and what you know from others, is it currently easier or more difficult to get such coins in major TPG holders?

 

Thanks.

[gmarguli]

I find it ironic that Mark Feld is largely responsible for all these blue coppers.

Care to explain that comment?

 

Sure. It was well known that MS70 could affect the color of copper. One day Mark Feld learns this and posts how awful it is on the forums. He condemns these actions. Since then hundreds, if not thousands of people have learned how to work copper. People who never touched a coin cleaner in their life are now suddenly buying bottles of MS70 and working copper.

 

And every time someone makes a negative comment about MS70 and copper, this debate starts all over again and even more people learn about the benefits of using MS70 on copper.

Maybe you have access to secret statistics that others, including myself, do not. But my observations (based on my attendance at most major shows, viewing of many major auctions and perusing EBay listings and various coin websites) are that fewer (not more) examples of such coins have been available for sale in major TPG holders during the past few years.

 

I am hoping that you will answer this honestly and sincerely - do you truly see more or fewer MS70'd copper coins in major TPG holders these days, compared to when I spoke out publicly on that subject? And whatever your answer, based on your personal experiences and what you know from others, is it currently easier or more difficult to get such coins in major TPG holders?

 

Thanks.

 

I obviously don't have statistics on it, but I will say that I see much fewer BN proof Indian for sale. I suspect that a great deal of them have been purchased, cleaned, and reslabbed - regardless of whether they took on a blue tone or not. Therefore, I believe more blue coppers exist because of the publicity. Just look at the forum threads and you'll see people trying to make them every time they learn about this process.

 

I don't spend a lot of time slabbing blue copper. However, I haven't noticed any consistent difference in the standards at the TPG. I was told by a grader that PCGS had tightened shortly after the posts, but I think that is now gone. I submitted a blue proof Indian for a client last year and it slabbed no problem. Want to guess how he knew to use MS70 on it to clean it up and it turned blue??? I've submitted MANY other blue coppers over the past year and had very few bag.

 

I don't think NGC ever changed their standards.

 

I do not believe it is any more difficult to get blue copper graded than it was before the threads. Possibly a little more difficult on MS blue copper, but that was always hit/miss.

[MarkFeld]

Thanks for your reply.

[Oldtrader3]

I would recommend performing this on several different compositions of copper alloys - brass, bronze, copper, including the pure copper of modern zinc cents.

 

I would include RB and BN cents as well because they will react differently to the MS70, probably because of prior toning oxide composition or biological contamination (superficial bioburden, skin oil etc.).

 

There were blue toned IHC proofs around before MS70 was available. Greg and others have stated this previously and I have observed this as well. Probably that is why the TPG's still grade blue copper coins.

 

I ran a few modern cents through a MS70 dip and the major benefit that I saw was in removing fingerprints that were not yet acid etched in the copper surfaces. I have used tree nut oil to remove the blue color but then the blue turns brown, usually.

[TonerGuy]

I have used tree nut oil to remove the blue color but then the blue turns brown, usually.

 

Not to hijack the thread but where can you purchase tree nut oil ?

 

Thanks.

[relicsncoins]

What does the MSDS say are the ingredients in MS70?