What's going on here?

[rtv]

I recently won an auction for a 2.50 1927 Indian from one of the most reputable dealers on e-bay - one of those dealers who guarantee their coins, show dozens of blow up photos of their coins that are sharp and clear that totally fill your monitor.

Sent the coin to NGC for grading. Came back improperly cleaned! Went back to look at the photos- absolutely no scrub marks. Anyway, contacted the seller and an agreement was made for a refund less the bullion value and I would keep the coin.

After some thought, decided just for the heck of it to send it to PCGS. Came back today an MS-63!

What the heck is going on here? I can see getting a grade up or down a point by re-submitting, but this span is mind-boggling. If it was truly cleaned, I don't believe PCGS would let it go as not being such.

One of these TPG's is way off, by choice or not. What's your guess for my pick?

[messydesk]

My guess the seller doesn't want to hear about this if he's already let you have the coin for spot.

 

Seriously, coins are misdiagnosed as cleaned/not cleaned all the time. On top of that, there's acceptable and unacceptable cleaning. Perhaps this fell into the acceptable category for PCGS and unacceptable for NGC.

 

 

[halfpint]

 

...now it's time to send it off for a CAC sticker.

[Mozin]

I WOULD send it off to CAC.

[Walkerfan]

Wow. That's interesting stuff! In my experiences NGC has always been more tolerant of allowing cleaned coins into their holders. I have always believed PCGS to be more strict about this. Just goes to show you...you never can tell and it works both ways! Maybe NGC has tightened things up due to criticism??? One can only speculate about the TPGCs inconsistencies.

 

 

[Coindude]

I would give the seller back the difference, he came through, so should you.

[James Mayer-migration]

I would give the seller back the difference, he came through, so should you.

 

Yep

[Walkerfan]

I would give the seller back the difference, he came through, so should you.

 

Minus submission/postage costs.....maybe......but what if it hadn't have 63ed? Then, he would have been stuck with a problem coin with a substantial amount of money tied up, since spot is not cheap with Gold being so outrageously high.

 

Doubtful the seller would do this for one of us. I think that the seller probably new that the coin was questionable and as MessyDesk said he just didn't want to deal with it and was glad to take the spot money.

 

What did the dealer represent this coin's grade as, initially?? That makes a big difference as well.

 

I think that I would keep the difference, b/c there are no guarantees with raw coins and it is always a risk. He was VERY fortunate that is slipped by PCGS. There was a very good chance that he may have been stuck with a coin that was ungradeable, which would bother me and, personally, I wouldn't want it at all, if that was the case.

 

Does the coin look cleaned to you now that u can see it in hand??? Are you happy with it's look (surface/luster) ?

 

This is certainly a judgement call. But, honestly, should you really give the seller back the money? Also..I know nothing about Indian Gold...is this a rare/key date?? Is there a huge numismatic price difference for this particular date? that should also be considered. If so, then I would probably give him back the difference, as long as, I was satisfied with the coins appearance.

[James_OldeTowne]

I recently won an auction for a 2.50 1927 Indian from one of the most reputable dealers on e-bay - one of those dealers who guarantee their coins, show dozens of blow up photos of their coins that are sharp and clear that totally fill your monitor.

Sent the coin to NGC for grading. Came back improperly cleaned! Went back to look at the photos- absolutely no scrub marks. Anyway, contacted the seller and an agreement was made for a refund less the bullion value and I would keep the coin.

After some thought, decided just for the heck of it to send it to PCGS. Came back today an MS-63!

What the heck is going on here? I can see getting a grade up or down a point by re-submitting, but this span is mind-boggling. If it was truly cleaned, I don't believe PCGS would let it go as not being such.

One of these TPG's is way off, by choice or not. What's your guess for my pick?

First of all, Welcome to our friendly little neighborhood!

 

No matter what you hear on the street, PCGS is NOT a "better" grading service than NGC, and vice-versa. What's important to know is that grading is highly subjective. Therefore, a single coin can, and should, grade differently at different times and under different market conditions.

 

There's an excellent chance that if you crack the coin out and sent it back to PCGS, it will come back as yet a different grade... or even get bagged! Whether we like to admit it or not, much of grading is left to chance. Coin sniffers and other gimmicks aside, it is simply not possible to grade a coin consistently 100% of the time.

 

Be happy with your good fortune! If it were me, knowing the coin likely is cleaned (and PCGS certified it anyhow - that does happen), I'd dump it in a huge hurry and turn the funds into something with less, ahem, "baggage".

[Walkerfan]

In no way was I suggesting that PCGS is better than NGC or vice-versa. I believe them to be very EQUIVALENT. TPG is HIGHLY subjective but most people agree that each of the 2 big dogs have subtle nuances and both have their own distinct pros and cons but there are no absolutes in life.

[Conder101]

Welcome to the world of Third Party Grading where every submission is a roll of the dice. Pay very close attention to the second and third paragraphs in what James said above.

[Dcoin]

Therefore, a single coin can, and should, grade differently at different times and under different market conditions.

 

 

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. I would think collectors would like consistency in a given grade. I know I do.

[James_OldeTowne]

IOne of these TPG's is way off, by choice or not. What's your guess for my pick?

I forgot to mention - the fact that they have different opinions doesn't mean one of the services is "way off". A coin can be cleaned, yet still grade MS-63, as happens all the time.

Therefore, a single coin can, and should, grade differently at different times and under different market conditions.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. I would think collectors would like consistency in a given grade. I know I do.

I understand where you are coming from. But see my statement above, as it underscores why "inconsistency" is virtually a requirement of the coin grading process. Why can't a coin that's been lightly cleaned grade MS-63? or one with mild slide marks? or one that has a spot?

 

This is where subjectivity can and must come in. My suspicion is that in the case of the OP's question, both grading services are correct in their (differing) respective opinions. The coin probably does grade MS-63, per PCGS, and it probably has been cleaned, per NGC. So that is why I would think a coin can and should be able to grade differently under different circumstances.

[Mark T]

I am curious – who was the EBAY seller ??

If it is who I think, they are very reputable .

Can you post a high resolution picture of this coin ??