What percentage of TPG-graded coins, & what percentage of CAC coins are widgets?

[James_OldeTowne]

In your opinion?

 

It seems like more and more of the coins that are certified and then CAC-stickered are simply widgets, which is to say, common, plentiful coins that hardly even need to be certified, much less stickered, to retain their full value.

 

This thread is NOT an indictment of the CAC process! Rather, it's a reflection of what seems like an endless sea of common, ordinary and relatively inexpensive silver coins burdened by the silly cost of a slab and a sticker, and I wonder why in the heck anyone bothers to send in such coins. Do you really need NGC or PCGS to confirm that your roll of twenty 1881-S Morgans consists of nice coins? And do you really need CAC to double-confirm that? Why are there SO many 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, and 1945 Philadelphia mint Walkers in slabs? and then stickered?? and they are piled on top of stack after stack of certifed 1922, 1923, 1924 and 1925 blast-white Peace dollars in MS-64 holders! ARGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

 

You know, I'm just sayin'.... sometimes, I wonder why folks fork over so much good, old-fashioned hard-earned money to the grading services to certify what amounts to silver rounds. If I have to catalog another 1881-S-Morgan-dollar-in-PCGS-MS-64-with-a-sticker, I just might throw myself in front of the next moped that comes roaring down my street.

OK over, go ahead and take your best shot , especially you guys who think this is just another CAC rant !

[gmarguli]

Probably 98%+ of all coins certified are widgets.

 

Why do we need plastic and a sticker for every coin? Because the knowledge of the average collector has decreased rapidly over the past 20 years. Collectors are flat out dumber today than 20 years ago. Plastic went from being a tool to being the only thing necessary. And for some really dump people, they need a sticker on top of it.

[PerryHall]

Actually, I think plastic makes a serious collector a much better coin grader. After studying thousands of coins in top tier slabs and comparing each coin with its respective grade listed on the slab label, I know I'm a much better grader than what I was twenty four years ago when slabs first became popular.

[TomB]

At least some of these coins with CAC stickers on them might have gone through the evaluation process for free since CAC offers their service without charge at Coinfest each year. They limit the submissions to twenty coins per collector, but I would imagine they look at and evaluate perhaps several thousand coins at the show.

[JJSingleton]

It's mostly about the Kool-Aid. The TPGs have completed the brainwashing of 90% of all collectors. For the masses, if it is not slabbed there must be something wrong with the coin. And for the "ego elite" masses if it is not stickered it is not up to their standard. Dealers understand this and no longer sell coins, they sell plastic and stickers.

[BillJones]

Several observations –

 

1. Most collector coins are common and therefore might be called “widgets.”

2. Many of the MS-64 graded common date Walkers and 1881-S dollars are the “losers” from the bulk grading process. They owners sent them in hoping for the MS-65 or better grades, but some coins didn’t cut it.

3. It’s hard to sell raw coins these days. I’ve been collecting coins for over 50 years, but I’ve so conditioned to the fact that many coins are raw for a reason that an alarm bell goes off in my head when I see them. Alarm bells often do not lead me to write big checks for raw coins, although I still do it for rare, raw tokens, medalets and medals.

4. I’m not sure that as many collectors as we might hope are becoming better graders because of slabs. There are too many collectors who take the slab grades for granted and don’t question them. How many times have you guys posted comments that a certain coin is miss-graded in the slab only to have someone respond, “But the EXPERTS say this is the grade and you guys are all armatures”? Sure you can learn about grading from slabbed coins, but you have to study the coins and not just take the grade for granted.

 

[World Colonial]

In terms of your point number 3, I see no reason to buy a common coin (which is definitely most of them) raw if a large number of certified specimens are available. The buyer might as well buy a graded coin and crack it out.

 

I also agree with you about assuming that raw coins have problems. I know that this is not always true but its better in many instances to assume that it is. I buy most of my coins ungraded without an opportunity to inspect them in person and sometimes even without any pictures. Its not the way most people would buy their coins but its the only option I have most of the time because of what I buy.

 

The way I compensate for that is through two ways. First, there are two dealers I buy from whom I know. They have a return policy. But mostly, I just refuse to pay more than a moderate amount of what I believe the coin would sell for if it was graded. Sellers are just leaving money on the table today with the coins I buy if they are not graded. Recently, I bought a South Africa 1932 penny for $40 which came back NGC MS-63 BN. I can easily sell this coin for over $1,000. Since its so obvious to me that this coin should sell for more than the asking price, what else would I assume other than the coin has problems?

[PerryHall]

I don't like the term widget because it's used by certain high end dealers to disparage other dealer's or collector's coins. I don't think that any collector coin is a widget since it has value to someone who may not be able to afford anything better but loves the coin just the same.

[World Colonial]

My definition of a widget coin is one which is essentially interchangeable with another one. Many (but by no means all) coins that are common fall into this category by my definition because they look alike and can be bought at any time.

[West August-migration]

In my experience cac coins are much easier to sell that non cac coins. In the area that I play in, anyway.

 

And I cacked all of my widget MS64 Morgans at Coinfest. Why not? How can it hurt?

[Houston Investor]

I don't like the term widget because it's used by certain high end dealers to disparage other dealer's or collector's coins. I don't think that any collector coin is a widget since it has value to someone who may not be able to afford anything better but loves the coin just the same.

 

I certainly feel the same way. Very few people walking in the door of a coin show even have as much as $1000 (I believe this is the widget cut off parameter) in their pocket anyhow so the propogandists who invented the term are not only trying to degrade other dealers, but collectors as well. One does not have to be a dealer or investor in coins exclusively over $1000 to make money in coins or enjoy them either; quite the contrary.

 

[World Colonial]

By my definition, there are more than enough coins that sell for over $1000 that are widgets.

 

There are also a vast number of coins that sell for less than this $1000 cut-off that are absolutely not widgets because they are either scarce or not that common in an absolute sense, or at least in a relative one (such as die varieties, toning and conditional rarities).

 

At least one distinction should be how easy or difficult a coin is to find or locate. If it is easy, it is likely or at least possibly a widget. If difficult, then it would be a ridiculous use of the term to call these coins widgets simply because of their price.

 

An example to me of a widget coin would be a blast white Morgan dollar even if in high grade and supposedly a semi-key date. If there are enough of them where it can be bought effectively on demand, its a widget.even if it costs a lot more than $1,000. The 1995-W proof ASE with a mintage of about 30,000 is unquestionably a widget even though it also costs several thousand.

 

On the other hand, a $50 or $100 coin such as some circulated US coins that are out of favor but not that easy to find and multitudes of world coins are definitely not widgets because it takes effort or a lot of effort to locate them.

 

[helipilot61-migration]

The grading of coins came about because of the increase in long distance purchases, where the coin cannot be seen in hand. For this reason alone it makes sense to grade most coins. With the increase in internet buying it is especially important.

 

I have found it expedient to buy ungraded coins and have them graded. I buy raw coins at a small percentage of their FMV . An example is the 1886 O Morgan. I have recently bought 3 of them for an average of $75.00. I would grade them from AU58 to MS63. I could easily sell them for from $500 to $3000 once graded.

[RareSov]

Australia couldn't agree more. Most coins are sold raw, and the few "slab dealers" had negative feelings towards them for some time (the market is coming around now though)

 

Our numismatic market is small by comparison, and a lot of gold really does need to be in a slab. Sovs in the big collections are often cleaned. Case in point, the Quartermaster collection recently sold, had many cleaned coins