Inherited a fake 1914 d $2.5 Indian Gold Eagle...

[kbsig106]

My grandfather passed back in January and over the past few months my grandmother has given me portions of his coin collection to keep or sell. She gave me a 14K coin ring with had what appeared to be a 1914 $2.5 Indian and after further inspection of the reverse found the mint mark "D". Knowing the key dates, I felt it would be a good idea to have the coin sealed away for safe keeping to pass down to my son at a later date. I removed the coin and sent the coin to NGC for what we hoped would be a authentic details grade, nothing more. After one week under NGC review, they came back with the determination that the coin was not genuine w/o an explaination. The coin weighs 4.18 g and is the correct diameter - with some rub on the obv.

 

Needless to say my grandmother was floored. She had purchased the ring in the early 70's from a reputable coin dealer in town (still in business today) and my grandfather wore the ring for many years. I have attached a few pictures and I plan on taking the coin to my local show the end of next month for some education.

 

any thoughts? This is a first for me and a bit of shock but plausible. Really disliked telling her, but she wanted to know the results.

 

 

 

[SD4000-migration]

I would say resend it in.Ive noticed on some things their looked at too hard.and just because it was "questioned" doesn't mean it isnt real.maybe call NGC talk to a grader,have it re-evaluated.

 

added,Sometimes perfectly unc coins,will look rather un-natural after being jewelry pieces

[physics-fan3.14]

The feathers look weird to me - not to mention it is unnaturally shiny. That coin will not make it into a problem free holder. I'm not an expert at authenticating (or grading) gold though, so you'll have to wait for the big guns.

[WoodenJefferson]

Unfortunately the grading services never actually inform the submitter why the coin was rejected as not genuine. Perhaps the coin was weighed and was rejected for being under weight. Even though this coin does not show the typical hallmarks of a counterfeit coin, like a mushy strike, there are certain diagnostics used to determine the good from the bad.

 

Unfortunately, there is a lot of coin jewelry that has been reproduced outside the US Mint walls...do not be discouraged just yet. There are several good topics on counterfeit gold coins on this forum, just do a search utilizing all forums.

 

I think a new member by the name of Snaz just joined, he maybe better informed, sometimes these threads take time to develop...the coin has waited this long, a few more days will not hurt.

 

Good luck.

[James_OldeTowne]

My guess is it's one of many well-known die-struck counterfeits. All the grading services have photographs of the diagnostics for these dies, so it's a simple matter of matching up your coin to one of the photos. I'm sure they did that and determined that your coin was struck off the fake dies.

 

It is doubly common for coin dealers in past decades to discover such a problem, then relegate the "coin" to jewelry, extreme surface disruption, or other process that severely lowers the value, and makes it unlikely the new owner will ever worry about authentication of such a lowly piece.

 

1914-D is not nearly a key in the $2.50 series (there's only one key - 1911-D). Therefore, it was a perfect target for counterfeiters in the 1970s.

 

(By the way, I'll pay you gold value for it, if you need to sell, and it is indeed a die-struck fake.)

[fishfinder]

The wing feathers are a dead give away. If they are that defined and that deeply struck they would have sharper edges. The hook on the beak, mouth and eye is exagerated and strikes me as a repro. The polished look is not right. I can't see the vine, but I'll think you'll find it lacks the detail of the real thing along with those fat lines in the arrow. The obverse is worn, out of focus and tougher to see clues. Check out the stars closely and the reeding.

[robec1347]

Actually the mintage of the Philadelphia 1914 is half what the Denver mintage is. 448k for the Philly and 240k for the Denver

[Mark T]

I would say resend it in.Ive noticed on some things their looked at too hard.and just because it was "questioned" doesn't mean it isnt real.maybe call NGC talk to a grader,have it re-evaluated.

 

added,Sometimes perfectly unc coins,will look rather un-natural after being jewelry pieces

 

Great Advice Sd , you could not be more off base or wrong with your post.

[Mark T]

The wing feathers are a dead give away. If they are that defined and that deeply struck they would have sharper edges. The hook on the beak, mouth and eye is exagerated and strikes me as a repro. The polished look is not right. I can't see the vine, but I'll think you'll find it lacks the detail of the real thing along with those fat lines in the arrow. The obverse is worn, out of focus and tougher to see clues. Check out the stars closely and the reeding.

 

You hit the nail on the head using the feathers as a diagnostic.

The D looks wrong as well . The coin is also polished.

This is a very obvious counterfeit.

 

Here is a real 1914-D

[L1ncolnF4n]

The wing feathers are a dead give away. If they are that defined and that deeply struck they would have sharper edges. The hook on the beak, mouth and eye is exagerated and strikes me as a repro. The polished look is not right. I can't see the vine, but I'll think you'll find it lacks the detail of the real thing along with those fat lines in the arrow. The obverse is worn, out of focus and tougher to see clues. Check out the stars closely and the reeding.

 

You hit the nail on the head using the feathers as a diagnostic.

The D looks wrong as well . The coin is also polished.

This is a very obvious counterfeit.

 

Here is a real 1914-D

 

After seeing that piece, I'm 100% sure NGC got it right. Specifically if you focus on the beak, it's far too pronounced in the jewelry piece. Additionally the feathers on the eagle are too "sharp and squared", but on the genuine piece they are much more round feeling.

[gmarguli]

It is doubly common for coin dealers in past decades to discover such a problem, then relegate the "coin" to jewelry, extreme surface disruption, or other process that severely lowers the value, and makes it unlikely the new owner will ever worry about authentication of such a lowly piece.

 

This needs repeating as it is very true. Lots of jewelery pieces are counterfeits.

[TomB]

It is fairly common to find raw gold that is counterfeit and this has been the case for many decades. I would be absolutely stunned if NGC got this wrong. Save the money that another submission would cost you and keep the piece as a rememberance of your grandfather.

[WoodenJefferson]

Curious...does anyone here think that this so-called coin is made of solid gold or do you think it has a core of another metal, jacketed in gold?

 

Is it even gold?

[SD4000-migration]

I personally think the TPG's are being very cautious.I think there is a possibility it is real,but looks funny due to the fact it was in a ring,and worn for many years.I think if the OP called NGC and talked to a grader,and told them it was in a ring for many years,maybe they would look at it and actually compare it to the original dies,there is a 50/50 chance it could get holdered with details.just an opinion.And again there is a chance it is a Jewelry made piece.that is common too.

[L1ncolnF4n]

Curious...does anyone here think that this so-called coin is made of solid gold or do you think it has a core of another metal, jacketed in gold?

 

Is it even gold?

 

I believe he said the weight and diameter were very close, that would lead me to believe that its at least plated, with an inner core of something else. If it passes the sound test, I'd venture to guess that it's probably just a less pure gold planchet. The general color and look seems to be just fine. Just my

[James_OldeTowne]

Curious...does anyone here think that this so-called coin is made of solid gold or do you think it has a core of another metal, jacketed in gold?

 

Is it even gold?

 

I believe he said the weight and diameter were very close, that would lead me to believe that its at least plated, with an inner core of something else. If it passes the sound test, I'd venture to guess that it's probably just a less pure gold planchet. The general color and look seems to be just fine. Just my

When these fakes were being made in the Middle East (most likely), they were being made on good planchets - right size, right gold content, good "ring test". That's what made them such easy movers for scammers.

[cpm9ball]

I think you would be wasting your time and money resubmitting it. Listen to the sage advice given here.

 

Chris

[Lazarus Long]

If someone were going to go through the trouble of making a fake common date coin, why would they make it out of 22k gold? Why not just use a real coin for jewelry?

[L1ncolnF4n]

If someone were going to go through the trouble of making a fake common date coin, why would they make it out of 22k gold? Why not just use a real coin for jewelry?

 

Less expensive at the time? We're talking bullion price for this, versus numismatic price on a genuine piece. While they can swing both ways, generally the latter is higher.

 

On something like a key or semi-key date especially.

[SD4000-migration]

I think if you call NGC,oh wait,I know, if you call NGC talk to a grader,tell them the situation,they can review it at no charge.some would like to think their more knowledgeable than others around here.But Experience can trump rational thinking.Its just like saying "oh this coin will never get graded"....send it in enough times it will. Grading=opinion at that given point in time, for that brief second in time by a person.

[TomB]

If someone were going to go through the trouble of making a fake common date coin, why would they make it out of 22k gold? Why not just use a real coin for jewelry?

It is not uncommon for counterfeit gold to be made from the proper gold finess and weight, especially pieces that came from the Middle East beginning at least in the 1960s.

[Mark T]

I think if you call NGC,oh wait,I know, if you call NGC talk to a grader,tell them the situation,they can review it at no charge.some would like to think their more knowledgeable than others around here.But Experience can trump rational thinking.Its just like saying "oh this coin will never get graded"....send it in enough times it will. Grading=opinion at that given point in time, for that brief second in time by a person.

 

The coin is an obvious counterfeit. Why do you continue to post that he should re submit expecting a different outcome ? At least 3 different NGC graders looked at this coin and determined that it was fake. Most of us can see that the coin is a fake from the photo. You are going to tell us that the professional graders at NGC who viewed the coin in hand are not going to see the same ??

[BillJones]

Here is a 1914-D quarter that is from my set. It has not been certified, but it has the "Bill Jones" certification, and I'm sure it's genuine.

 

As you can see the surfaces are frosted, not brilliant. Your piece may have been polished after it was struck, but it appears that the surfaces are not the same as those found on a genuine coin.

 

[cpm9ball]

I think if you call NGC,oh wait,I know, if you call NGC talk to a grader,tell them the situation,they can review it at no charge.some would like to think their more knowledgeable than others around here.But Experience can trump rational thinking.Its just like saying "oh this coin will never get graded"....send it in enough times it will. Grading=opinion at that given point in time, for that brief second in time by a person.

 

I wonder!

 

Do you think if I submitted an F12 1889CC Morgan enough times that they would grade it MS64?

 

Chris

[relicsncoins]

Many of you are stating the coin looks unaturally shiny.....Of course it does, the OP said the coin was in a ring, and the ring sitting next to the coin in the photos.

 

Whether it's realy or not I can't say from the photos. The pollished look can easily be explained by the fact it was in a ring mounting.

[SD4000-migration]

If you can "clearly" see that from a bad photo,maybe you should start a "online" grading service.you grade the coin from a photo and send them a slab to put it in.Coins do very unusual things when in unusual places.it may have taken an un-natural look while in a ring for so many years.back in the days,the middle eastern's used a princess head die that they acquired,and used iraq/iran gold,which did not look like American gold,thats how people figured it out,by color.grading coins 5 per minute, a 2nd look wouldnt hurt anything at all.

[SD4000-migration]

I said grade.it may come back cleaned numerous times,maybe even fake,maybe even altered.it is a proven fact.

[Mark T]

I said grade.it may come back cleaned numerous times,maybe even fake,maybe even altered.it is a proven fact.

 

You don’t have a clue , plenty of diagnostics on this coin from the photo to show it is fake. Please don’t give bad advice when you don’t know what you are talking about . Maybe because I collect these coins it was easy to tell it was a fake based on the photo. Without knowing that NGC called it a fake I still would have questioned this coins authenticity . Based on the photo and the fact that NGC said it was not genuine there was no question in my mind that it was a fake . You can argue yourself into a hole on this one as you have done with some of your other posts. The end result will still be the same as you will make yourself look silly.

 

[SD4000-migration]

Like I always say,they more you type,the less you look like a "professional" anything.My statements are true.Without a great photo,there is no certain way to tell.I would never rebuild the motor in my car,by asking a lawn mower mechanic for help.And Now I will never ask you for advice on coins.The grading companies are being really cautious right now.If it looks funny it gets bagged,Did they do a real comparison to all the known dies? no telling.2nd look? wouldnt hurt a thing.so you can argue yourself in the ground if you like.Im not going to argue.I made clear factual statements.OP the choice is up to you.

 

[cpm9ball]

The sad part is that a beginner may read his garbage and think it's correct. It's no skin off his nose. It wouldn't be his money down the drain. He doesn't care about anybody here.

 

Chris