"..any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors is artificially toned"..

[WoodenJefferson]

Woody I will give you fifty dollars for that nasty ole' AT coin.

 

That one belongs to Irvin

[dean1345]

Sorry I did know that it belongs to Irvin. I have seen it numerous times and always enjoyed seeing it.

[rrantique]

Sorry I did know that it belongs to Irvin. I have seen it numerous times and always enjoyed seeing it.

 

Sorry Dean it won't be on the Market for quiet some time as I enjoy it also.

 

[kryptonitecomics]

posted yesterday in the AT Peace dollars thread recently started by soty27

 

Point of clarification...this toning thing is just my opinion. PCGS graders have their own opinions and in this case my opinion isn't signaling any change in PCGS policy...it's just my opinion.

 

HRH

 

So according to Mr.Hall there is no policy change by PCGS....he just felt the need to provide his expert opinion on the subject....obviously to bring attention to his coinfacts thread

[leeg]

I buy what I like:

 

 

CRO (Dave W.) and mgoodm3 image:

 

 

for both

 

 

PCGS MS63

 

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

leeg, we don't want to see any of that AT'd stuff. Only post dipped out blast white Peace dollars from now on.

 

 

 

Very nice '21

[TonerGuy]

Well I am late to this party.... but after collecting toned Peace $ for 8 years now and looking at literally hundreds/thousands of them... many are raw AT examples or even accelerated NT. There are a few ATs in slabs but for the most part I think that both NGC and PCGS do a good job at catching the problem coins.

 

Without getting into the definition of AT v. NT - my opinion has always been based on intent. Coins left in any normal coin containing device that imparts toning over the course of years is NT in my opinion. Adding heat or other substances even to those normal devices should be considered accelerated NT.

 

Adding chemicals to the coins directly is AT.

 

With that said, I think David Hall is completely off base with his statements. I have Peace $ with reds/greens/blues on them that I have purchased raw and personally removed from their original holders and sent them into NGC for grading. I have a Wayte Raymond Peace $ album that is starting to produce rim toning on several of the coins.

 

I think the issue is more about supply and demand. When I starting collecting toned Peace $ back in 2001 no one had them. I would walk up to a table at a show and I would get this look from dealers like I was asking for their garbage. They all told me to give up and collect toned Morgans. When I told people I was going to do a toned MS set I was told I was crazy and it couldnt be done. Well I am one coin away -- the 34-S.

 

Slowly people started liking toned Peace $, especially those of us that couldnt afford toned Morgans and they slowly started to be pulled from collections and sold. Demand increased, supply increased, prices increased.

 

Hall didnt see any in the 60s and 70s because, I suspect, there was no market for them. The market was toned Morgans. Fast forward 40 years, now there is a market and we have had an additional 40 yrs for the toning to occur. Of course we are going to see more NT Peace $. But with prices remaining strong we are also going to see the doctors working their magic.

 

And quite honestly, a NT Peace $ isnt a work of art like an NT Morgan. Toned Peace $ are like scotch... an acquired taste.

 

The neon colored big dollar toned Peace $ that I have seen have always been suspect to me though.

 

With that in mind for all of you that are worried about your AT Peace $ in PCGS plastic, please contact me so I may help you remove those problem coins from your collection. Thank you David Hall....

[just-john]

Look don't know Mr Hall's age .But in the 60's peace dollars were just junk silver coins except maybe 2 dates.You could buy them at face values at the fed bank in NY. Does he remember seeing any toned Roosevelt Dimes I don't but are there ones now YES -Washington Quarters none that i recall then now Yes-- and HALF both Franklin and Walking don't recall

Then again he may have thought that he had dipped them all think that was the trend then look at all the white Morgans SILVER IS SILVER look at old spoons and cups stuff that was cleaned turns colors stuff that is not cleaned just gets darker DONT SHOOT THE MESSENGER

[MarkFeld]

Well I am late to this party.... but after collecting toned Peace $ for 8 years now and looking at literally hundreds/thousands of them... many are raw AT examples or even accelerated NT. There are a few ATs in slabs but for the most part I think that both NGC and PCGS do a good job at catching the problem coins.

 

Without getting into the definition of AT v. NT - my opinion has always been based on intent. Coins left in any normal coin containing device that imparts toning over the course of years is NT in my opinion. Adding heat or other substances even to those normal devices should be considered accelerated NT.

 

Adding chemicals to the coins directly is AT.

 

With that said, I think David Hall is completely off base with his statements. I have Peace $ with reds/greens/blues on them that I have purchased raw and personally removed from their original holders and sent them into NGC for grading. I have a Wayte Raymond Peace $ album that is starting to produce rim toning on several of the coins.

 

I think the issue is more about supply and demand. When I starting collecting toned Peace $ back in 2001 no one had them. I would walk up to a table at a show and I would get this look from dealers like I was asking for their garbage. They all told me to give up and collect toned Morgans. When I told people I was going to do a toned MS set I was told I was crazy and it couldnt be done. Well I am one coin away -- the 34-S.

 

Slowly people started liking toned Peace $, especially those of us that couldnt afford toned Morgans and they slowly started to be pulled from collections and sold. Demand increased, supply increased, prices increased.

 

Hall didnt see any in the 60s and 70s because, I suspect, there was no market for them. The market was toned Morgans. Fast forward 40 years, now there is a market and we have had an additional 40 yrs for the toning to occur. Of course we are going to see more NT Peace $. But with prices remaining strong we are also going to see the doctors working their magic.

 

And quite honestly, a NT Peace $ isnt a work of art like an NT Morgan. Toned Peace $ are like scotch... an acquired taste.

 

The neon colored big dollar toned Peace $ that I have seen have always been suspect to me though.

 

With that in mind for all of you that are worried about your AT Peace $ in PCGS plastic, please contact me so I may help you remove those problem coins from your collection. Thank you David Hall....

Michael, great to see you post. It sounds like you still like and own some of those ugly toned Peace dollars Private message sent.

[Mark T]

Darn I guess I will have to send this one back to Dave Hall for a re grade .

[TonerGuy]

Michael, great to see you post. It sounds like you still like and own some of those ugly toned Peace dollars Private message sent.

 

Thanks Mark... just sent you a PM as well.

[just-john]

guy in 1960 recalling the looks of coins from 1921 skiping around to 1935 t hat makes the oldest one 39 yrs old at the time news 25 yrs old . So lets look back from 2010 say 39 yrs to 1971 skip around to 1996 who's really checks them for toning ? or really collects them ? or would have them graded in the first place ?

is MR Hall checking these types of coins I would think not get you to have them graded well that another story ?

[physics-fan3.14]

I'll enter this argument in on the NT side of things:

 

[coinman23885-migration]

Just call me crazy then. because I say that Peace dollars will not become colorful examples like naturally occurring Morgans.

 

This could be debated back and forth like a tennis match and soon everyone will have nothing more than a stiff neck.

 

You're not crazy, but I dont think your approaching the question from the same angle as some of us. I'm not not sure if anyone thinks they usually come in the same colors as morgans, I certainly don't. I would be suspect of one that did. Most of the rainbow toned peace dollars I've seen were very different than what comes on morgans, but they were still rainbow toned coins. Peace dollars with color originated in different ways than rainbow morgans, most of which were toned strictly in bags. Peace dollars are decades newer than Morgans, and didnt sit in bags as long.

 

Both coins are 90% silver, 10 % copper; both coins were stored often in sulfur containing paper albums and/or bags. The only variable is time; thus, how can Hall even say that they cannot exist? I bet many of the rainbow toned Morgans that he was seeing in 1960s were from the early 1900s- meaning only 56 or more years had passed (discounting 1921 outlier that is akin to its peace dollar brethren, assuming he saw the coins as early as 1960) . Even the newest peace dollar (barring rumored 64-D) is 75 years old. This statement is scientifically unproven, bankrupt and the entire argument is invalid logically on its face. I'm not saying that rainbow toned Peace dollars aren't rarer then Morgans. In fact, it is quite logical why they are rarer (i.e. most Peace and Morgan Dollars were removed from government bags in the 60s treasury clean-out; the peace dollars are younger and more likely not to had as much contact with the bags/other elements that could account for additional rainbow toning). To say that rainbow toned peace dollars are rare and must be viewed with cautioned is clearly different from stating that they do not exist (at least not from natural processes).

[coinman23885-migration]

Let's start a poll to summarize:

[$ilverHawk]

Compare toning of 1921 Morgan Dollars and 1921 Peace dollars. 1921 Morgan fairly common I would expect coin doctors to play with these issues in lower MS numbers. 1921 Peace Dollar no one would mess with an MS 1921 Peace Dollar. It wouldn't make economic sense.

 

1921 is the key date. We have the exact same alloy 90% Silver 10% Copper used in two different coins. Are the results similar? As I stated in a related thread, I would expect alot more vividly toned MS 1921 Morgans than MS 1921 Peace Dollars.

 

Check collections, check internet postings. Show how many vividly toned MS 1921 Peace Dollars there are versus vividly toned MS 1921 Morgans.

 

Unless the storage environment is radically changed their should be no difference in toning. Is there any rationale for a grossly different storage environment for these coins?

 

No, the 1921 Peace Dollar will have far fewer vividly toned examples than the 1921 Morgan Dollar.

[TonerGuy]

From my understanding 21 Morgans are hard to come by with toning as well...

 

I have 4, but most are not that colorful.

 

And if you do find toned examples they are rarely wildly toned and tend to tone somewhat similar to Peace $...

 

You might be on to something there....

 

Here's are 3... P,D and S

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[coinman1794]

Compare toning of 1921 Morgan Dollars and 1921 Peace dollars. 1921 Morgan fairly common I would expect coin doctors to play with these issues in lower MS numbers. 1921 Peace Dollar no one would mess with an MS 1921 Peace Dollar. It wouldn't make economic sense.

 

1921 is the key date. We have the exact same alloy 90% Silver 10% Copper used in two different coins. Are the results similar? As I stated in a related thread, I would expect alot more vividly toned MS 1921 Morgans than MS 1921 Peace Dollars.

 

Check collections, check internet postings. Show how many vividly toned MS 1921 Peace Dollars there are versus vividly toned MS 1921 Morgans.

 

Unless the storage environment is radically changed their should be no difference in toning. Is there any rationale for a grossly different storage environment for these coins?

 

No, the 1921 Peace Dollar will have far fewer vividly toned examples than the 1921 Morgan Dollar.

 

There are a lot of nice. totally original 1921 rainbow morgans, and there are not many 1921 rainbow peace dollars. I dont think this is because coin doctors don't play with 1921 peace dollars, its more likely a difference in storage between the two coin types, or even differences in planchet rinsing proceedures at the mint. Many more 1921 morgans sat around in rolls and albums than did 1921 peace dollars, which are scarce in comparison. Further, its hard to say what new proceedures may have been in place in 1921 with peace dollar blanks, but generaly peace dollars have milk spots that are a result of residue being struck into the surface of the coin, which means it was rinsed onto the blanks at the mint. Come to think of it those same spots are common on 1921 Morgans, but not on earlier morgans, so I would vote for storage differences.

[Bugmann1974]

I would say that since the '21 Morgan is the "ugly step child" of the Morgan series that they are more apt to have been left alone while the '21 peace dollar has been more apt to be dipped or stored in a way to keep them from toning.

[cpm9ball]

You must also take into consideration the mintage of the two coins, Morgan vs Peace, and how they were distributed. The total production of the 1921 Morgan (PDS) was 86,730,000; the total production of the 1921 Peace (P only) was 1,006,473.

 

Beginning in early 1922, the Mint began paying out Peace dollars to banks across the country, and many bank customers seeking to acquire specimens were limited to just one. Of the total production, the Treasury Department kept a mere 138,000 of the 1921 Peace dollars in federal coffers. On the other hand, the bulk of the 1921 Morgan production was never paid out and remained in federal coffers until the releases of the late 30's and early 60's.

 

Chris

[leeg]

CAC bought this one back. The only reason being that it wasn't a good fit in my collection at the time.

 

 

 

[coinman23885-migration]

Compare toning of 1921 Morgan Dollars and 1921 Peace dollars. 1921 Morgan fairly common I would expect coin doctors to play with these issues in lower MS numbers. 1921 Peace Dollar no one would mess with an MS 1921 Peace Dollar. It wouldn't make economic sense.

 

1921 is the key date. We have the exact same alloy 90% Silver 10% Copper used in two different coins. Are the results similar? As I stated in a related thread, I would expect alot more vividly toned MS 1921 Morgans than MS 1921 Peace Dollars.

 

Check collections, check internet postings. Show how many vividly toned MS 1921 Peace Dollars there are versus vividly toned MS 1921 Morgans.

 

Unless the storage environment is radically changed their should be no difference in toning. Is there any rationale for a grossly different storage environment for these coins?

 

No, the 1921 Peace Dollar will have far fewer vividly toned examples than the 1921 Morgan Dollar.

 

There are far fewer 1921 Peace Dollars in comparison to the huge mintage of the 1921 Morgan Dollar. The Peace Dollars entered commerce more quickly and the 1921 were likely hoarded by collectors, especially since it was a first year of issue. Meanwhile, the 1921 Morgans stayed in bank vaults in sulfur containing bags for years and....

 

Also, as someone mentioned, there have been toning fads and periods where white coins were more favorable. The 1921 Peace dollar is more likely to have been dipped during one of those non-toned fads.

[just-john]

Still say back then early 60s even late 50 s except for a few dates nobody cared about peace dollars .You could go to a bank and if you asked for one say for a grandchild stocking stuffer birthday ect the tellers alway had them you had to ask,

Like asking for a 1971 coin today who cares

[TonerGuy]

Also, as someone mentioned, there have been toning fads and periods where white coins were more favorable. The 1921 Peace dollar is more likely to have been dipped during one of those non-toned fads.

 

I think this applies to many years not just the 21s. I think many Peace $ had original toning dipped away years ago because of the desire for blast white coins.

 

Its been a real finding a toned MS 34-S. I was able to find a nice MS-63 28 toner though.

[$ilverHawk]

The term natural toning implies a chemical event without the direct intervention of human beings. Think about that and all the implications. AT/NT is in fact an artifical dichotomy. We make the coins we store the coins under various conditions and then we determine what is or is not a "natural' event. And of course some of us play chemical games on coins. Sort of like the difference between Mutts (natural) and Pedigreed (artifical) dogs.

 

The truth is we value change over time versus intervention even though the intervention may yield the same result. Artifical intervention somehow "cheapens" the outcome. Why, because we value quality of conservation over time. Isn't that one of the basics of numismatics?

 

Basically, we know what to expect from the oxidation of various metals and their alloys over time and in standard storage conditions. There's the rub, who says what is standard and what is not? Too many variables.

 

Collect what you like and let the TPG s worry about what is AT. Personaly, I'm a bit conservative I like clear rainbows and solid oxidative toning. When I see a coin with colors that look like a kid went crazy with a box of crayons---I pass.

 

Carl

[$ilverHawk]

I know I'm outside of the thread but, WTF I'm amazed just what was wrong with that coin? I'm serious on what basis would CAC buy back that coin?

[leeg]

I know I'm outside of the thread but, WTF I'm amazed just what was wrong with that coin? I'm serious on what basis would CAC buy back that coin?

There was nothing wrong with this coin. Just not a fit for my collection.

 

CAC offers two services:

 

One is reviewing and approving or rejecting the grades of coins assigned by PCGS and NGC.

 

The second is making a market in the CAC-approved coins.

If you own a coin with a CAC sticker they'll make you an offer on it. I accepted their offer on this piece.

[$ilverHawk]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I wasn't aware of that aspect of CAC s service policy.

 

Carl

[MarkFeld]

I know I'm outside of the thread but, WTF I'm amazed just what was wrong with that coin? I'm serious on what basis would CAC buy back that coin?

There was nothing wrong with this coin. Just not a fit for my collection.

 

CAC offers two services:

 

One is reviewing and approving or rejecting the grades of coins assigned by PCGS and NGC.

 

The second is making a market in the CAC-approved coins.

If you own a coin with a CAC sticker they'll make you an offer on it. I accepted their offer on this piece.

So they bought it - they didn't buy it back (as in taking it off the market).

[mikesartifacts]

 

In a PCGS holder to boot...