"..any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors is artificially toned"..

[Tradedollarnut]

Some albums can naturally tone silver coins in five years or so.

 

Define "naturally tone". Placing a coin in a sulphur impregnated storage device is not natural toning. It's just that sometimes it's market acceptable.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Some albums can naturally tone silver coins in five years or so.

 

Define "naturally tone". Placing a coin in a sulphur impregnated storage device is not natural toning. It's just that sometimes it's market acceptable.

Yep. That's why I specifically stated that I consider album toning "natural", and acknowledged that some collectors do not agree.

[coinman1794]

 

 

The Morgan Dollars from 1878 through 1904 were conceived in world with renown artist, who’s silver canvases conveyed that true workmanship. The return of the 1921 Morgan was but an attempt to recreate an era when the US Mints created true works of art, but they only managed to duplicate, not replicate. This is why you do not see a lot of colorful 1921 Morgan’s, the facilities lost the ability to recreate those bygone days and were left to just hammer out silver coins.

 

Is this a serious statement?

 

 

Do you think the Morgan Silver Dollar is NOT a work of art?

 

Of course they are, but the toning has nothing to do with the Mint's artistic prowess. You had me until you said "This is why you do not see a lot of colorful 1921 Morgan’s, the facilities lost the ability to recreate those bygone days and were left to just hammer out silver coins." Add that to the previous sentence "The return of the 1921 Morgan was but an attempt to recreate an era when the US Mints created true works of art, but they only managed to duplicate, not replicate," and what you said was that the color on toned Morgan's was intentionally produced by the mint--prompting me to do a double take, and then ask you if that's what you meant to say

[WoodenJefferson]

Got ya

[IGWT]

Define "naturally tone".

 

Natural toning forms on the surfaces of a coin as the result of gaseous compounds that are present in the ambient atmosphere where coins are placed (1) for purposes consistent with their intended use in commerce, or (2) for protective storage in a manner traditionally accepted by numismatists.

 

Artificial toning forms on the surfaces of a coin by any process other than that which causes natural toning.

[Doogy]

 

 

The Morgan Dollars from 1878 through 1904 were conceived in world with renown artist, who’s silver canvases conveyed that true workmanship. The return of the 1921 Morgan was but an attempt to recreate an era when the US Mints created true works of art, but they only managed to duplicate, not replicate. This is why you do not see a lot of colorful 1921 Morgan’s, the facilities lost the ability to recreate those bygone days and were left to just hammer out silver coins.

 

Is this a serious statement?

 

 

Do you think the Morgan Silver Dollar is NOT a work of art?

 

IMHO, the Morgan dollar is one of the least artistically interesting coins ever created by the US Mint. In a time when many countries were creating stunning artistic masterpieces for their circulating coinage, we were churning out coins with large headed asexual symbols on the obverse, while the reverse features one of the worst depictions of an eagle to ever grace a coin. Where the eagle is seen by most Americans to sybolize strength, Morgan saw fit to create a sickly looking version that is clearly uninspiring.

 

The only redeeming qualities for the Morgan dollars in my eyes, was their ability to churn out so many stunning DPL examples as well as the now famous use of the bags that caused so many to tone nicely.

 

[coinman1794]

Some albums can naturally tone silver coins in five years or so.

 

Define "naturally tone". Placing a coin in a sulphur impregnated storage device is not natural toning. It's just that sometimes it's market acceptable.

Yep. That's why I specifically stated that I consider album toning "natural", and acknowledged that some collectors do not agree.

 

Album toning is just as natural as bag toning. If the coin was not exposed to extreme environmental conditions like cooking, adding extreme concentrations of chemicals to the surface, chemically treating copper, gasing, etc, then what you are dealing with, whatever it looks like, is the result of natural processes without a catalyst injected into the equation by a coin doctor.

[coinman1794]

Where this becomes fuzzy is when a canvas bag of morgan dollars sat in a bank vault on the corner of some midwest town, absorbing large amounts of sulfur fumes from the billowing exhaust of unregulated, 20th century, American traffic, and all the coins around the outside of the bag were awesome toners...just sayin

[MarkFeld]

Define "naturally tone".

 

Natural toning forms on the surfaces of a coin as the result of gaseous compounds that are present in the ambient atmosphere where coins are placed (1) for purposes consistent with their intended use in commerce, or (2) for protective storage in a manner traditionally accepted by numismatists.

 

Artificial toning forms on the surfaces of a coin by any process other than that which causes natural toning.

Lou, I (still) think that is as good as or better than any other definition/distinction I have seen. (thumbs u

 

Here are a couple what ifs for you under your language above...

 

What if coins in an album or tube or flips are accidentally left in a hot attic and quickly acquire unusual but gorgeous toning?

 

Same as above, but they are left in a car, instead of an attic?

 

Would it matter if either or both of the above were done intentionally and not accidentally?

 

Thanks

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Yep, Mark asked some of the questions that I would put forth for Lou's definition.

 

What about an ASE that was accidentally left on a lacquer-top desk and that subsequently takes on extraordinarily bright toning? or a cache of bust half-dollars that acquire brilliant neon tone from a leather purse stored in a safety deposit box? or a seated half-dollar found in the heating vent of a Victorian house?

 

My all-time favorite may be the dealer who showed me some jaw-dropping proof Barber quarters that displayed outrageous "album" color and were certified. He had previously dipped the coins, then "lost" them... but then found them a couple of years later in his glove compartment. They had apparently taken on paper toning from the maps and other items that were in there with the coins. Sadly, he was emptying the compartment because he was selling the car!! Otherwise, I would have suggested he keep that car and tone a lot more coins in it !

 

These are true scenarios that may not meet the criteria. But overall, I agree with the intent of your definition.

[kryptonitecomics]

When ever we talk AT vs. NT...intent always comes up in the discussion and I agree that it's a key part....but that key part can not be proven 99.9% of the time.

 

 

In my opinion.....if coins are placed in an album and they tone on a shelf or in a hot car......the bottom line is that they were in an environment that wwas going to tone the coin anyway......the speed in which the coins tone is determined by where the album was kept so in my mind in .... giving the accidental nature of what you stated....

 

What about an ASE that was accidentally left on a lacquer-top desk and that subsequently takes on extraordinarily bright toning?

NT

 

 

a cache of bust half-dollars that acquire brilliant neon tone from a leather purse stored in a safety deposit box

NT

 

or a seated half-dollar found in the heating vent of a Victorian house

 

I do find it odd....and inaccurate (in my opinion) for tradedollarnut to state that storage in an album is considered AT in his opinion....although he is completely entitled to that opinion......this is the first I have seen where any collector labeled such coins as AT due to the fact that this was a common and expected storage method for millions of collectors throughout the years.

 

but then again I do not subscibe to the notion that there is no AT or NT just MA.......I don't buy that argument....but agree that MA is the only thing that matters from a professional grading standpoint. (thumbs u

[kryptonitecomics]

I propose a new term..not to be used as a grade but rather a condition..... AU

 

If a coin that came directly out of the mint in a bag or roll can now be deemed AT then all of the dipped out blast white type coins: Morgans, Peace dollars, Walking Liberty halves, Franklins etc .......then henceforth any white coin that can't be proven to have it's original skin will be considered AUT - Artificially Untoned. I would bet that the amount of AU coins vs AT coins would be 50 to 1......funny how some collectors only want to talk about the funny business with toned coins when a high percentage of untoned coins are more linkely to have been messed with

 

Toned coin lovers always have to prove how a coin was stored or what the intent of the owner was when storing the coin while widget collectors are never asked how the coin got so white or stayed untoned for so many decades......thats the biggest double standard in coins.....

[IGWT]

Here are a couple what ifs for you under your language above...

 

What if coins in an album or tube or flips are accidentally left in a hot attic and quickly acquire unusual but gorgeous toning?

AT. I don't think that a "hot attic" qualifies a place where a knowledgeable numismatist would keep coins for protective storage.

 

Same as above, but they are left in a car, instead of an attic?

Same answer as above.

 

Would it matter if either or both of the above were done intentionally and not accidentally?

Nope. I know that a lot of collectors use "intent" to distinguish between AT and NT, but I don't think that's workable. Say that one collector places his coins in an album without knowing that they're likely to tone, and another collector places his coins in the same kind of album hoping and expecting that they'll tone. Assume that both sets of coins take on the same kind of toning due to exposure to the same environment over the same period of time. I don't think it makes sense to say that the first set is NT, but the second set is AT based on the intent of the collector.

 

Or, as another example, say that one collector accidentally drops a cent in a cup of detergent, and another collector dips a cent in MS70 to give it a nice purple hue. Lo and behold, the coins take on the same pretty color. I don't think that the first coin qualifies as AT just because it occurred "accidentally."

[MarkFeld]

Here are a couple what ifs for you under your language above...

 

What if coins in an album or tube or flips are accidentally left in a hot attic and quickly acquire unusual but gorgeous toning?

AT. I don't think that a "hot attic" qualifies a place where a knowledgeable numismatist would keep coins for protective storage.

 

Same as above, but they are left in a car, instead of an attic?

Same answer as above.

 

Would it matter if either or both of the above were done intentionally and not accidentally?

Nope. I know that a lot of collectors use "intent" to distinguish between AT and NT, but I don't think that's workable. Say that one collector places his coins in an album without knowing that they're likely to tone, and another collector places his coins in the same kind of album hoping and expecting that they'll tone. Assume that both sets of coins take on the same kind of toning due to exposure to the same environment over the same period of time. I don't think it makes sense to say that the first set is NT, but the second set is AT based on the intent of the collector.

 

Or, as another example, say that one collector accidentally drops a cent in a cup of detergent, and another collector dips a cent in MS70 to give it a nice purple hue. Lo and behold, the coins take on the same pretty color. I don't think that the first coin qualifies as AT just because it occurred "accidentally."

Thanks Lou. Your answers solidified your definitions as workable for me. For now, at least.

 

What about coins stored in an album on a bookshelf in an office, which is frequently exposed to the sun? Is a shade or curtains required for the coins to be considered NT? Put another way, how cautious/meticulous does the collector need to be for his coins to qualify as NT?

[kryptonitecomics]

Here are a couple what ifs for you under your language above...

 

What if coins in an album or tube or flips are accidentally left in a hot attic and quickly acquire unusual but gorgeous toning?

AT. I don't think that a "hot attic" qualifies a place where a knowledgeable numismatist would keep coins for protective storage.

 

Same as above, but they are left in a car, instead of an attic?

Same answer as above.

 

Would it matter if either or both of the above were done intentionally and not accidentally?

Nope. I know that a lot of collectors use "intent" to distinguish between AT and NT, but I don't think that's workable. Say that one collector places his coins in an album without knowing that they're likely to tone, and another collector places his coins in the same kind of album hoping and expecting that they'll tone. Assume that both sets of coins take on the same kind of toning due to exposure to the same environment over the same period of time. I don't think it makes sense to say that the first set is NT, but the second set is AT based on the intent of the collector.

 

Or, as another example, say that one collector accidentally drops a cent in a cup of detergent, and another collector dips a cent in MS70 to give it a nice purple hue. Lo and behold, the coins take on the same pretty color. I don't think that the first coin qualifies as AT just because it occurred "accidentally."

 

 

They left them there accidentally...sure it's not a normal place that a knowledgable collector would store then...they just forgot about them? The discussion didn't say anything about whether the collector was an ana member or was just left some Morgans by their great uncle.....and was clueless

[Tradedollarnut]

Where did I say that album toning is AT? I just said it's not NT.

 

IMO, it's impossible to define AT/NT in the middle where they meet. There's too many 'what ifs' just like in an ethics class.

 

Are Amon Carter's coins NT? Not really. But they're market acceptable.

[kryptonitecomics]

Where did I say that album toning is AT? I just said it's not NT.

 

 

Semantics.....I think folks like to create grey areas so they don't have to make a stand one way or another. Now with regards to toned coins there are some grey area coins but I also believe there are many more black and white coins

[James_OldeTowne]

Where did I say that album toning is AT? I just said it's not NT.

Are you saying there just might be ... a middle ground ?? I'm aghast that there could be anything other than black-and-white blanket statements when it comes to AT vs. NT !

[MarkFeld]

Where did I say that album toning is AT? I just said it's not NT.

 

 

Semantics.....I think folks like to create grey areas so they don't have to make a stand one way or another. Now with regards to toned coins there are some grey area coins but I also believe there are many more black and white coins

Shane, often it has nothing to do with wanting to avoid taking a stand, one way or the other. It's simply a matter of there being a huge gray area, where even the most knowledgeable numismatists can't tell. And I think that many/most submitters want such coins graded, but that many/most buyers don't.

[rrantique]

AT NT or IA ? (I accept) Just a point what matters to me.

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Not market acceptable.... at the AT end of the range.

[rrantique]

Not market acceptable.... at the AT end of the range.

 

 

I agree TDN not market acceptable, but acceptable to me and that is all that matters to me. (thumbs u

[WoodenJefferson]

Not market acceptable.... at the AT end of the range.

 

 

I agree TDN not market acceptable, but acceptable to me and that is all that matters to me. (thumbs u

 

But, did you pay a premium for that toned Peace dollar?

[coinman1794]

AT NT or IA ? (I accept) Just a point what matters to me.

 

 

 

Definitely a no-grade in my book!

[kryptonitecomics]

Where did I say that album toning is AT? I just said it's not NT.

 

 

Semantics.....I think folks like to create grey areas so they don't have to make a stand one way or another. Now with regards to toned coins there are some grey area coins but I also believe there are many more black and white coins

Shane, often it has nothing to do with wanting to avoid taking a stand, one way or the other. It's simply a matter of there being a huge gray area, where even the most knowledgeable numismatists can't tell. And I think that many/most submitters want such coins graded, but that many/most buyers don't.

 

But to say that album toning is not NT just labled millions of such coins as either AT or MA.....do you feel that way or do you feel like that's using the same brush stroke that David used when he labled all Peace dollars with red, blue, grren toning as AT? Surely out of the millions of album toned coins there has to be a population that are 100% NT?

[Tradedollarnut]

Some of my favorite coins that I've ever owned are album toned. But I've come to realize that they aren't NT. I treasured them when I owned them [or while I still own them], but they still aren't NT. They've been subjected to sulphur along their rims and are fairly easily replicated - especially if someone is willing to take their time.

 

 

Defining NT in such a way as to fit album toning into that group opens it up for all kinds of abuses such as what Boom was doing with his quarters that he sent to NGC.

[kryptonitecomics]

Your opinion on Album toned coins is duly noted, I just respectly disagree

[MarkFeld]

Where did I say that album toning is AT? I just said it's not NT.

 

 

Semantics.....I think folks like to create grey areas so they don't have to make a stand one way or another. Now with regards to toned coins there are some grey area coins but I also believe there are many more black and white coins

Shane, often it has nothing to do with wanting to avoid taking a stand, one way or the other. It's simply a matter of there being a huge gray area, where even the most knowledgeable numismatists can't tell. And I think that many/most submitters want such coins graded, but that many/most buyers don't.

 

But to say that album toning is not NT just labled millions of such coins as either AT or MA.....do you feel that way or do you feel like that's using the same brush stroke that David used when he labled all Peace dollars with red, blue, grren toning as AT? Surely out of the millions of album toned coins there has to be a population that are 100% NT?

Personally, I am of the view that most album toning should be deemed NT. But, I have no objection if TDN and others (perhaps they can be called "purists"?) feel differently. Of course there is a huge difference between TDN saying what he did and David Hall saying what HE did, with all of the toned Peace Dollars in PCGS holders.

[rrantique]

Not market acceptable.... at the AT end of the range.

 

 

I agree TDN not market acceptable, but acceptable to me and that is all that matters to me. (thumbs u

 

But, did you pay a premium for that toned Peace dollar?

 

Absolutely not Woody, purchased back in the mid 90's was in a small collection. Purchase price around 10 bucks.

[dean1345]

Woody I will give you fifty dollars for that nasty ole' AT coin.