Suppose you are a cataloger, and found an NGC MS-66 BN that upgraded...

[James_OldeTowne]

... to a PCGS MS-66 RB. In this purely hypothetical scenario, the coin made an appearance about a year ago in a major auction, and careful comparison of the toning pattern and diagnostic variety markers assure you it is the same early copper. (Besides, how many early copper MS-66s are there?)

 

Should this be mentioned in the description? Or ignore it and go on?

[MarkFeld]

I think that's a great question. My vote would be to mention it. It probably wont hurt the price realized, it's honest, informative and will give potential buyers the impression that you research items you catalog.

[gmarguli]

Ignore it and go on. There is no good that can come out of mentioning it.

[DirtyGoldMan]

Ignore it and go on. There is no good that can come out of mentioning it.

If the coin were in the Norweb collection, it would be worth noting. Coins are moved between grades, services, and designation, all the time. One could drive himself mad documenting it.

[MarkFeld]

Ignore it and go on. There is no good that can come out of mentioning it.

Greg, what about (the negative) when others discover that it's the same coin, but that it either wasn't noticed or mentioned by the cataloger?

 

Curiously, do you think there is much downside to disclosing it? I mean other than the mass suicides that might occur among those who think PCGS always grades more strictly than NGC.

[gmarguli]

Ignore it and go on. There is no good that can come out of mentioning it.

Greg, what about (the negative) when others discover that it's the same coin, but that it either wasn't noticed or mentioned by the cataloger?

 

Curiously, do you think there is much downside to disclosing it? I mean other than the mass suicides that might occur among those who think PCGS always grades more strictly than NGC.

 

There is no reason to think that the cataloger went looking for this coin in a different grade and slab in order to find its prior sale. I personally wouldn't think anything about it if the coin wasn't noted by a cataloger as being formerly in a different grade/slab and I found it.

 

Disclosing it may make bidders think that it is a borderline BN/RB coin and avoid it or bid lower. Or worse, that the coin is so close to BN that in a few years it becomes a true BN that you paid RB money for. Good luck getting that money difference from the TPG.

[MarkFeld]

Ignore it and go on. There is no good that can come out of mentioning it.

Greg, what about (the negative) when others discover that it's the same coin, but that it either wasn't noticed or mentioned by the cataloger?

 

Curiously, do you think there is much downside to disclosing it? I mean other than the mass suicides that might occur among those who think PCGS always grades more strictly than NGC.

 

There is no reason to think that the cataloger went looking for this coin in a different grade and slab in order to find its prior sale. I personally wouldn't think anything about it if the coin wasn't noted by a cataloger as being formerly in a different grade/slab and I found it.

 

Disclosing it may make bidders think that it is a borderline BN/RB coin and avoid it or bid lower. Or worse, that the coin is so close to BN that in a few years it becomes a true BN that you paid RB money for. Good luck getting that money difference from the TPG.

Fair points. But I thought you said you'd had good success with sending coins in under the grading guarantees?

[gmarguli]

Ignore it and go on. There is no good that can come out of mentioning it.

Greg, what about (the negative) when others discover that it's the same coin, but that it either wasn't noticed or mentioned by the cataloger?

 

Curiously, do you think there is much downside to disclosing it? I mean other than the mass suicides that might occur among those who think PCGS always grades more strictly than NGC.

 

There is no reason to think that the cataloger went looking for this coin in a different grade and slab in order to find its prior sale. I personally wouldn't think anything about it if the coin wasn't noted by a cataloger as being formerly in a different grade/slab and I found it.

 

Disclosing it may make bidders think that it is a borderline BN/RB coin and avoid it or bid lower. Or worse, that the coin is so close to BN that in a few years it becomes a true BN that you paid RB money for. Good luck getting that money difference from the TPG.

Fair points. But I thought you said you'd had good success with sending coins in under the grading guarantees?

 

I've had mixed results with the grade guarantees. My results have ranged from "wow, that was easy and I was compensated better than I ever anticipated" to "WTF, are you kidding me" and complaining up the ladder. However, overall I think I have had good results with grade guarantees.

 

Still, it's easier to get a payout on a coin that turned in the holder than trying to get a TPG to admit that the RB is now a BN.

[WoodenJefferson]

Once again it should/would be considered nothing more than opinion or another set of eyes looking at a coin. If the cataloger can actually see the coin in hand, they would be at an advantage to note up-grades, opposed to someone looking at only pictures and having to decide from previous histories.

 

Perhaps it should also be treated as “insider trading” ethics, but if all were privy to those remarks I see no harm.

[AegisIII]

Certainly, you should note the earlier auction appearance(s). That way, the information about the grading will be available to who wants to look. I don't think you need to mention any earlier grades, but you can if you wish. (After probing my mind, I would go further and think you should make a mention of the earlier grade. (should vs need). Let people see the grade differences, let people interpret them however they see fit. But openness is the best policy.)

[michael]

mention it

[Coindude]

My question to you James... is it BN or RB? That's what I really want to know... and maybe you've heard this before, but maybe a picture is in order?

[EZ_E]

Certainly, you should note the earlier auction appearance(s). That way, the information about the grading will be available to who wants to look. I don't think you need to mention any earlier grades

 

I would perhaps agree with this but it would be a disservice to the seller to mention the change in designation. Your job as an employee for Scotsman Auctions is to the consignor and you would be out of bounds, IMO, to negatively affect the potential purchase price of the coin from an assumption, even if you are correct.

[gmarguli]

I would perhaps agree with this but it would be a disservice to the seller to mention the change in designation. Your job as an employee for Scotsman Auctions is to the consignor and you would be out of bounds, IMO, to negatively affect the potential purchase price of the coin from an assumption, even if you are correct.

 

I didn't mention this in my post, but also felt this way. If an auction company did something to lessen the value of my consignment, that'd be the last consignment they ever received from me and I'd make sure they knew why.

[kryptonitecomics]

I would perhaps agree with this but it would be a disservice to the seller to mention the change in designation. Your job as an employee for Scotsman Auctions is to the consignor and you would be out of bounds, IMO, to negatively affect the potential purchase price of the coin from an assumption, even if you are correct.

 

I didn't mention this in my post, but also felt this way. If an auction company did something to lessen the value of my consignment, that'd be the last consignment they ever received from me and I'd make sure they knew why.

 

 

I have to agree.....part of purchasing at auction for many is speculation.....speculation that they may be getting more coin than they are paying for since in a lot of cases buyers don't get to see the coin in hand. Knowing that a coin has already been upgraded.....grade wise or designation wise would/could lead to slightly lower prices which isn't fair to the consigner.

 

If the buyer wants to do some research prior to their purchase to see if the coin has been sold before at auction then that is entirely up to them but as the cataloger.....I don't believe it's part of your job to do the research and add the additional info. Is it fair for you to make an opinion like.....the coin is in a RB holder but its closer to BN etc if that's your take.....possibly. Is it fair for you to potentially list the last time the coin sold......possibly......but in my opinion....that's as far as you should go.

[James_OldeTowne]

Guys, this has been a very valuable discussion. Thanks for all comments going either way on this.

[Conder101]

An early copper of that quality should definitely be pedigreed and that would include the mention of the previous auction sale. Whether or not you wish to mention the differring grade is up to you. Frankly I would because it would help to keep the pedigree chain clear. (Lest researchers think there are two high quality coins of that variety out there, one an NGC 66BN and one a PCGS 66RB)

[coinman1794]

My question to you James... is it BN or RB? That's what I really want to know... and maybe you've heard this before, but maybe a picture is in order?

 

Exactly, you are describing the coin, so tell us in the description whether or not the coin is Red Brown or Brown. It matters little in the scheme of things, whether or not you menton a former designation, if the current one is the correct one.

[michael]

mention it as it is honest

 

the coin stands on its own merits

 

 

[fishfinder]

"the coin stands on its own merits"

 

michael, you are absolutely correct.

[gbsten]

1. Let the buyer beware....

 

2. Buy the coin, not the holder...

 

3. Your fees are for the listings, not to be the buyer's adviser...

 

4. Great you are honest! But your first duty is to work for your client, right?

[Bugmann1974]

Though I can understand your wanting to inform the buyer I think it is the buyers responsibily to perform due diligence on the coin.

[coinman1794]

Coins change grades all the time. The rub here is that this one went on the market before being changed, whereas many are played with for a long time before hitting the market, going through many grades until the desired grade is finally achieved (yes, any given no-brainer coin can grade 3 or 4 different ways at PCGS/NGC...trust me I know ). The problem is ubiquitus to certified coins. Perhaps a better solution to the problem would be to have a disclaimer in the auction's fine print that grades vary and people shouldnt put so much emphasis on the opinion of the grading services, in the first place. radical, huh?