Crack out or not!

[dean1345]

I bought this PCGS graded 1868 PF63RB in a Old Green Holder about a month ago. I thought was way conservative and possibly a crackout candiate. This is a three part question.

 

Do you think it is undergraded?

If so should I crack out and submit to NGC?

Should I leave it in PCGS holder and submit to NGC?

 

Your opinions are greatly appreciated.

 

[physics-fan3.14]

It appears undergraded in those pics, but grading toned early proofs from pictures is pretty much impossible - you know that.

 

I wouldn't crack it out because that makes me nervous about damaging expensive coins, especially with fragile proof surfaces.

 

If you wanted to resubmit, I would send it to PCGS in the slab. Normally I would say NGC, but I hate the blasted prongs.

[WinstonWare]

I'd roll the dice and crack it

[James_OldeTowne]

It looks to me like it's been messed with. I would not risk cracking it out.

[robec1347]

I've seen this one in hand and I think it is under graded by a couple of points. The coin is much more impressive than the images show. It has a strong strike, terrific luster and very few, if any distractions of any type. I'm not sure if leaving it in the holder would sway the graders one way or another, I know it shouldn't and they say it doesn't, but I'm not convinced. I have no proof, but I think if PCGS regrades with it in the holder it will go 64RB. Raw I believe would go 65RB. At the same time, I agree with Jason about the fear of damaging the coin during a crack out operation.

[MarkFeld]

I'd leave it as is. If you feel that it is a strong candidate for upgrade, consign it to an auction when it's time to sell, and let the knowledgeable bidders bid it up.

 

Edited to add: In a large majority of cases, asking if someone thinks a Proof coin is under-graded based on images is an exercise in futility. This one qualifies.

[Mark T]

That is a nice coin. I don’t really like the crack out game, plus you run a risk with NGC as they have become very tight.

You can crack it out and send it to me , I promise a 2 point upgrade and also promise not to send the coin back .

[TomB]

It is unrealistic to believe anyone who is grading from these images could tell you if this coin is accurately graded or not.

[dean1345]

Mark........ I would think you might be somewhat knowledgeable . Doesn't Heritage sell over the internet with only a picture?

Tom....... I am not asking you to grade it but to ask you if you have seen IHC proofs PF63 that is comparable? Have you ever bid on a coin with just a picture on the internet? I think Bob Campbell took a pretty represntative photo.

[MarkFeld]

Mark........ I would think you might be somewhat knowledgeable . Doesn't Heritage sell over the internet with only a picture?

Tom....... I am not asking you to grade it but to ask you if you have seen IHC proofs PF63 that is comparable? Have you ever bid on a coin with just a picture on the internet? I think Bob Campbell took a pretty represntative photo.

Sure, Heritage and others sell over the internet to buyers, some of whom buy the coins sight-unseen. But that has nothing to do with trying to determine if a Proof coin is under-graded based on an image. And it would be extremely foolish to bid for the next grade up, sight-unseen, based on an image.

 

It might be an excellent image, but we still don't know how the coin looks in hand. And we don't know the extent of its hairlines, a factor that is frequently the major determinant of a Proof coin's grade.

[TomB]

Typically, the greatest determinant of point loss for proof coinage is the issue of hairlines. Images can hide the presence of hairlines or exaggerate the impact of hairlines. Even those images that are taken with accuracy in mind cannot fully show hairlines on proof coinage. Therefore, asking if this apparently neutral to slightly above average eye appeal proof is accurately graded is more like asking someone to praise the image and not the coin.

 

As for eye appeal, well, I previously owned a PR63RB IHC that had significantly better eye appeal, in my opinion, to the coin in question and the reason it was in a PR63RB holder was because there was a medium size carbon spot on the obverse near the rim. The coin didn't have any hairlines, but the carbon spot held the grade down at least two points and perhaps more.

 

Lastly, yes I have bid on coins via an image on the internet, but I don't recall ever bidding on a proof coin under such circumstances and I also do not bid or buy without a clearly written return policy that allows me to return the coin for a full refund. No image can replace inspection of the coin in-hand.

[robec1347]

I've looked at the coin with a 10x and 15x loupe and cannot spot any hairlines, let alone any that would detrimental to grading. There are no spots or marks with the exception of a couple of flyspecks which are almost microscopic. Maybe Dean should have posted this in the "Hey buddy, can you spare a grade?" forum. Even though we all know that it is impossible to grade a coin by an image, he might have received more opinions as to whether they thought it was undergraded at 63.

 

 

[TomB]

If this thread had included Bob's analysis of the surfaces of the coin from the start then I would have been more receptive to the idea that it might be undergraded. However, the thread started with a three part question, which included as one part a request for opinion as to the coin being undergraded. If the coin is free of hairlines, as Bob has stated, then the images in my opinion are not consistent with what is typically awarded the PR63RB grade and designation and the coin would likely stand a reasonable chance at grading higher.

[physics-fan3.14]

Send it to CAC and get a coveted gold sticker

[PCcoins]

Maybe it was the obverse toning that held the grade back when originally graded by PCGS? Personally, I wouldn't crack it and send it to NGC.

 

I would leave it be, or try to upgrade if you planned on selling.

 

Nice coin

[RareSov]

Don't crack it. It is in PCGS's interest to correctly grade the coin, regardless of what holder it comes in in, or raw

 

Could put min crossover grade of 64 ? and if it comes back in the current holder send it to CAC.

 

Just one question, since the images suggest hairlines.. have you been looking at it with a halogen lamp ? magnification alone is not always enough (is this one of those cases)

[robec1347]

Just one question, since the images suggest hairlines.. have you been looking at it with a halogen lamp ? magnification alone is not always enough (is this one of those cases)

 

Admittedly, my eye sight is not what it used to be, but even using OTT lights and now, 3 loupes (10, 15 and 20x) I still don't see any. I suppose it's possible that the toning could be hiding them and if it is, it's doing a marvelous job, but in my eyes they just aren't there. I'm sure when Dean gets them back next week, he will give it a good going over.

[michael]

Do you think it is undergraded?

 

i doubt it

 

 

If so should I crack out and submit to NGC?

 

absolutely NOT

 

 

Should I leave it in PCGS holder and submit to NGC?

NEVER

 

if you are so sure the coin is undergraded and it might be my guess is you are missing hairlines on the coin but if you are sure it is truly undergraded then submit to pcgs in the holder at worst case scenerio you get it back ina new holder graded the same and best case scenerio it gets upgraded by one point

 

personally myself i would leave it right where it is as it is accurately graded

 

good luck with it and please let me know the results if you send it into the services

and i wish you a proof 64

[RareSov]

Pretty much, but IMHO why get it back in a new holder same grade ? put min 64 if its worth it to you to keep it in that holder for whatever reason

 

Let us know

[MarkFeld]

Pretty much, but IMHO why get it back in a new holder same grade ? put min 64 if its worth it to you to keep it in that holder for whatever reason

 

Let us know

NGC and PCGS will not accept cross-over submissions with a minimum grade which is higher than the current grade.

[James_OldeTowne]

One thing you might consider that argues against cracking this coin out is to wonder why it hasn't been already, if it's such a lock for upgrade. In other words, "there's a reason it's still in its rattler holder", if you know what I mean .

[physics-fan3.14]

One thing you might consider that argues against cracking this coin out is to wonder why it hasn't been already, if it's such a lock for upgrade. In other words, "there's a reason it's still in its rattler holder", if you know what I mean .

 

Might have been off the market for the past 15 years.

[coinman1794]

One thing you might consider that argues against cracking this coin out is to wonder why it hasn't been already, if it's such a lock for upgrade. In other words, "there's a reason it's still in its rattler holder", if you know what I mean .

 

This assumes that every person who's handled the coin before the current owner is confident in his own grading skills, is a regular submitter to PCGS, and knows their grading standards and usual inconsistencies down to a science. Few collectors or dealers are in this possition; many dont even have access to the grading services.

[jackson64]

Has anybody mentioned the cost/value increase factor?...listed as a 63RB it's got a $450 tag at the PCGS pricelist...a PF64RB is only $550...between shipping both ways and the fees, that is a very small margin for the effort...plus if you use NGC and they grade it also a a 63RB..you still lose money since NGC slabs sell for slightly less most often...

 

I'd say to leave it...by the way, many of us, like Mark stated, will pay above list and ignore the grade on the slab for a PQ coin...

 

 

PS: I really love the almost "oaken wood look to the color/striations..very attractive coin..IMO

[HiHoAudio]

The last time I cracked a coin out of a PCGS holder and sent it to NGC it went from a MS62 to a MS61.

 

I'd say let it be.

[dean1345]

Thanks for all the advice and all was taken. I think the if the 1868 were to upgrade 1 point it would not be worth the trouble. I was hoping for a 2 point upgrade but it is such a shoot. I will leave as is and it DOES have very nice eye appeal.

[L1ncolnF4n]

thats a damn nice cent by the pics, but I wouldn't crack it. resubmit if you want, but the OGH is worth something on its own...PR64-65 in my mind