Are the people who are best qualified to detect doctored coins... coin doctors?

[James_OldeTowne]

Just wondering about your opinion. But it makes sense to me that before you can be really expert at detecting doctored coins, you need to doctor a lot of them yourself, or else you will always be going on second-hand knowledge. While you can certainly learn much from others' experiences with regard to doctored coins, nothing can beat first-hand knowledge.

 

I believe Greg Margulies made a similar assertion some time ago.

 

Please discuss!

[Tradedollarnut]

I know of at least one coin doctor who was hired briefly for this very reason - until he quit to keep doctoring coins. It's jdhfla's buddddd.

[Schatzy]

Make sense to me. I have doctored a few coins just to see what happens but I always throw them into my junk jar afterwards.

[mommam17]

James- I would think looking at alot of coins would be the key. Getting to know what different doctor`s work look like. I don`t think you need to doctor coins,but you need to know what you have in your hand. That`s my opinion.

[Conder101]

By that theory the best at authenticating coins would be counterfeiters.

[James_OldeTowne]

By that theory the best at authenticating coins would be counterfeiters.

Conder, that's interesting, and in fact, I think that may be true as well. As I recall, the (alleged) counterfeiter of the infamous 1959 wheat cent contributed much insightful knowledge regarding authentication of coins.

[Mozin]

I have more confidence in a group of PCGS/NGC graders determining doctored coins, than I have in any one coin doctor. Now, if a few coin doctors held workshops together...

[physics-fan3.14]

Well, the best people at stopping hackers are former hackers. The principle seems to make sense.

[EZ_E]

Well, the best people at stopping hackers are former hackers. The principle seems to make sense.

 

I agree. That's why I've played around with AT'ing some inexpensive coins in the past: to know what to recognize! It certainly has made me wiser and more knowledgeable in recognizing some of the garbage for sale on e-bay.

[WinstonWare]

Over the past few years I’ve started giving my father toned coins for his birthday, father’s day, and Christmas. My younger brother, upon seeing these coins, said that he could create the same rainbow toned effect on coins using some “plasma sputtering” contraption that he used in one of his physics labs. He was convinced that he could duplicate the toning on these coins and that I would not be able to distinguish the difference. Unfortunately, he finished his physics degree and is currently in medical school so we never got to test this plasma sputtering contraption out on any coins. My point is, even if you played around with window sills, MS-70, tater sacks, or whatever I’m not convinced that it would prepare you for the newest, most technologically advanced way to doctor a coin. I’ll say no to the original question.

[James_OldeTowne]

I would like to emphasize that by a "coin doctor" being best qualified to recognized doctored coins, I am referring to someone who does it for a living (or practically does so), rather than one who has occasionally fried some up with the bacon. I personally know two coin doctors who make all their income from their practice (or so they have told me), and another who supplements about half his income doctoring coins, and I have found all three to be exceptionally acute at recognizing some forms of doctoring performed by others.

 

So, understanding that baking a few coins doesn't impart much useful knowledge about doctoring in general, I'd like to assess my opening question from the point of view of a "professional" coin doctor.

[relicsncoins]

I would like to emphasize that by a "coin doctor" being best qualified to recognized doctored coins, I am referring to someone who does it for a living (or practically does so), rather than one who has occasionally fried some up with the bacon. I personally know two coin doctors who make all their income from their practice (or so they have told me), and another who supplements about half his income doctoring coins, and I have found all three to be exceptionally acute at recognizing some forms of doctoring performed by others.

 

So, understanding that baking a few coins doesn't impart much useful knowledge about doctoring in general, I'd like to assess my opening question from the point of view of a "professional" coin doctor.

 

I think most people view doctoring as adding toning to a coin, but AT'ing a coins is only small part of the doctoring that's going on out there, and probably not the part that the serious doctors are making money on.

 

I once remember a story from the 1980's where some guy found a rare gold coin with a metal detector and put a rather large gouge in the coin. Sometime between when that coin was found and when it sold at auction, that gouge miraculously disappeared.

 

JJ

[BillJones]

They might be the best qualified, but given the nature of what they do for a living, can you trust them?

 

I guess it like hiring a reformed safe cracker to do your security plan for you.

[WoodenJefferson]

Look for one of these shingles

 

[EZ_E]

Well, the best people at stopping hackers are former hackers. The principle seems to make sense.

 

Frank Abagnale Jr had made a second career out of recognizing forgeries and helping the FBI nab the crooks.

 

 

[Tim's Gems]

I have had coins body bagged for rim dings. GSA's for damaged case's. To me be it natural or art. toning it's damaged. I've seen slabbed coins so washed out the frosty luster gone. Now we have to worry about VERY good counterfits of many many coins. I'd have to agree the best detectors probably would be Doctors.

[FILTHYHOARD]

Well, the best people at stopping hackers are former hackers. The principle seems to make sense.

 

Same concept in Vegas. Many of the guys sitting behind those monitors watching every move are former cheats.

[bsshog40]

It is not uncommon for companies to hire, I don't know if criminals would fall into all categories, people that are familiar with certain businesses. Former Hackers are hired by companies to detect computer security, I've heard of Ex-Cons to be hired by security companies to help design better security devices for homes and businesses. I don't think that your question James is at all far fetched. There is probably alot of truth in it.

[coinman1794]

Just wondering about your opinion. But it makes sense to me that before you can be really expert at detecting doctored coins, you need to doctor a lot of them yourself, or else you will always be going on second-hand knowledge. While you can certainly learn much from others' experiences with regard to doctored coins, nothing can beat first-hand knowledge.

 

I believe Greg Margulies made a similar assertion some time ago.

 

Please discuss!

 

That's exactly how it is is with determining what type of cleaning a coin has had. If you've never dipped a coin, MS70'd a coin, or acetoned a coin, you won't know exactly how to tell it was done (and you almost alwasy can tell). I've never experimented with artificial toning, but I'm sure that such a project would go a long way to educate someone in detecting AT'd coins.

[lehigh96]

Well, the best people at stopping hackers are former hackers. The principle seems to make sense.

 

Same concept in Vegas. Many of the guys sitting behind those monitors watching every move are former cheats.

 

 

I don't mean this in a mean way, but that is only true on TV and the movies. The fact is that it is almost impossible to get a casino license if you have formerly cheated a casino. The guys with the knowledge are the pit bosses and casino managers. When they suspect foul play, the call surveillance to watch the table/slot to catch the cheat on video. Very rarely does a surveillance employee just happen to catch a cheat randomly checking one of the hundreds (or thousands in a large casino) of cameras on the casino floor.

 

PS: I have worked in the casino business for 15 years.

[rrantique]

Look for one of these shingles

 

 

[FILTHYHOARD]

Well, the best people at stopping hackers are former hackers. The principle seems to make sense.

 

Same concept in Vegas. Many of the guys sitting behind those monitors watching every move are former cheats.

 

 

I don't mean this in a mean way, but that is only true on TV and the movies. The fact is that it is almost impossible to get a casino license if you have formerly cheated a casino. The guys with the knowledge are the pit bosses and casino managers. When they suspect foul play, the call surveillance to watch the table/slot to catch the cheat on video. Very rarely does a surveillance employee just happen to catch a cheat randomly checking one of the hundreds (or thousands in a large casino) of cameras on the casino floor.

 

PS: I have worked in the casino business for 15 years.

No offense taken

[jonthecoinjunky]

While I have doctored coins before to see what the end result would be, I still go by one rule for purchasing coins. If there is any doubt in my mind, I would pass on the purchase. I cannot even begin to tell you how many beautiful toned coins many of which were pcgs and ngc I have passed on simply because they look AT to me.

 

Use your best judgement.

 

And dont ever buy the Joan Rivers of coins.... That with allot of work done.

[Mark T]

I will doctor a coin, but only after the coin shows me proof of insurance .

[jackson64]

Well, the best people at stopping hackers are former hackers. The principle seems to make sense.

 

Same concept in Vegas. Many of the guys sitting behind those monitors watching every move are former cheats.

 

 

I don't mean this in a mean way, but that is only true on TV and the movies. The fact is that it is almost impossible to get a casino license if you have formerly cheated a casino. The guys with the knowledge are the pit bosses and casino managers. When they suspect foul play, the call surveillance to watch the table/slot to catch the cheat on video. Very rarely does a surveillance employee just happen to catch a cheat randomly checking one of the hundreds (or thousands in a large casino) of cameras on the casino floor.

 

PS: I have worked in the casino business for 15 years.

No offense taken

 

Sorry but not entirely true..the gentleman who was the most reknowned for cheating the slots out of their jackpot payouts is the premier expert now (since his sentence ended) in designing slot machines that can't be cheated...

 

PS: I also believe that liscensing (sp) laws may be different according to the job title..ie: gaming vs security professionals

[RareSov]

Makes sense to me

 

As for the original question, professional coin doctors would be better at detecting most alterations and of course the alterations that THEY are experienced with, but the experience of other authenticators have, looking at original and doctored coins all day for many years.. and moreso the equipment at the disposal of NGC for example, I think they could pick up things a doctor could not.

 

Can a doctor use an electron microscope to detect microscopic tooling around a mintmark? maybe if he gets rich enough first. Even with a 20x or standard microscope the latest methods may not be detectable.

 

It makes you wonder. What other fancy equipment could be pointed at a coin to show up what is under toning, or show how thick the toning is.. who knows, perhaps there is a scientific way of detecting how OLD toning actually is ? if not now, when ? is it just a matter of "if enough money is thrown at it"

[MikeInFL]

"Are the people who are best qualified to detect doctored coins... coin doctors?"

 

Seems rather self-evident to me.

 

It takes one to know one, as the cliche goes....Mike

[HiHoAudio]

I have never doctored a coin but I have bought enough on eBay over the years that I now know what to look for, thanks to sharp eyed NGC, PCGS and ANACS graders.

 

It cost me, but when is education ever free?

 

PS - Love the photoshopped pic of grandma cooking a Morgan!