Things are changing across the street …

[Schatzy]

The ratio is zero - CAC doesn't sticker moderns.

 

I know nothing about CAC except what I learned on these boards.

Is there a year cut-off date for coins submitted to CAC. Basically what is considered modern?

[Tradedollarnut]

And yes, no doubt that you can take my support of CAC with a grain of salt. But at the same time you should at least give my reasoning its due. There was a dramatic problem at the mid to upper end of classic coins. Rampant doctoring and grade inflation were wreaking havoc and something needed to be done.

 

CAC has already accomplished much of what it set out to do. Certain problems inside the hobby have stopped completely, others are reduced. The TPG's have tightened the screws - publicly stating that their default has gone from "if we're not certain it's AT, we'll holder it" to "if we're not certain it's NT, we won't holder it" - and have put certain submittors on notice.

 

CAC is not perfect, but it was the best solution we could come up with to the problems that we saw in the hobby. If you have a better mousetrap, then by all means go for it.

[gmarguli]

The ratio is zero - CAC doesn't sticker moderns.

 

Greg - shouldn't we discount the opinion of a modern collector when CAC doesn't sticker modern coins and never will? I believe that's Mark's point.

 

Opinions should be discounted if there is a legitimate reason such as the person stating something is not qualified to give that opinion (i.e. modern collector discussing stickers on classic coins) or their opinion is biased (i.e. financial investor in CAC or friend of JA). Opinions should NOT be discounted about the need for a service just because a person doesn't use a service.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

My answer would be to point out that nobody is forcing someone else to buy five-digit coins, and if someone does feel that he can only enjoy coins by spending big bucks, then it's like anything else: look before you leap.

 

And no one is forcing you to utilize CAC ... and can't "looking before you leap" involve getting another opinion from an expert... such as CAC?

 

I must say, your rants tend to be filled with contradictions.

Contradictions? That's strange, as I can't seem to find where I made a statement that "getting another opinion from an expert... such as CAC " CAN'T be involved with "looking before you leap".

 

What I did state was:

 

Finally, do I think it's bad to have a third opinion on a coin? or a fourth? or a fifth? Of course I don't. I just want that opinion to come from someone who is not in the business of manipulating a large segment of the coin market.

 

For many people, their collections are worth more than your house. Indeed, for many people, their collections are their largest asset. I believe that at one point I had 70% of my net worth tied up in my collection.

 

So please stop preaching that we should worry about things other than whether or not some of our coins are doctored. We do - just like you worry about termites. Don't you insure your house?

Are you seriously trying to compare a sticker to home insurance? Well if we play along with the astonishing idea that a CAC sticker somehow equates to insurance, then the difference that makes CAC look sinister would be pretty obvious: I choose who insures my home, whereas with a sticker, someone else already chose "insurance" for me whether I need/want it or not! Believe you me, I DO NOT EVER WANT SOMEONE ELSE determining for me who is going to insure my home!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Either I misunderstand how you're equating home insurance to coin grade insurance, or I am missing the humor altogether ... but either way I think this is an analogy you want to avoid.

[MarkFeld]

The ratio is zero - CAC doesn't sticker moderns.

 

I know nothing about CAC except what I learned on these boards.

Is there a year cut-off date for coins submitted to CAC. Basically what is considered modern?

See here

[Tradedollarnut]

then the difference that makes CAC a joke

 

Your bias is showing.

[Tradedollarnut]

Either I misunderstand how you're equating home insurance to coin grade insurance

 

If your insured home burns down, you collect from insurance. If your stickered coin is doctored, you collect from CAC.

 

Is it really that hard to see the analogy?

[gmarguli]

Rampant doctoring and grade inflation were wreaking havoc and something needed to be done.

 

Rampant is a little hyperbolic. If it were accurate, then CAC would be rejecting a vast number of coins which is not what I've been hearing. In fact, it appears that a large majority of coins submitted are getting stickered - unless people are embarrassed to admit otherwise.

 

As for grade inflation, I'm not a believer that it is a problem. Remember what an MS65 ("GEM") Morgan used to look like 20 years ago? Much nicer than the MS65s of today. All the collectors wanted to buy only gem coins and all the dealers needed them to sell. The TPG adjusted their grading standards to give the market what it wanted and turned MS64s into MS65s. Why is that bad? The market got what it wanted and needed.

 

 

[Schatzy]

The ratio is zero - CAC doesn't sticker moderns.

 

I know nothing about CAC except what I learned on these boards.

Is there a year cut-off date for coins submitted to CAC. Basically what is considered modern?

See here

 

Thanks Mark

 

 

 

It seems like a weird list to me.

 

Lincoln 1955, 1972 & 1995 Double Die

What about the 1983. It seems they are very selective and the last time I checked the 1995 Lincoln is as modern as it gets.

[James_OldeTowne]

Either I misunderstand how you're equating home insurance to coin grade insurance

 

If your insured home burns down, you collect from insurance. If your stickered coin is doctored, you collect from CAC.

 

Is it really that hard to see the analogy?

Let me clarify what I posted .

 

I CHOOSE MY OWN HOME INSURANCE. I DO NOT want someone else to choose how my coins are insured, EVEN IF his name is "John Albanese" (and by the way, I happen to like John).

 

Is it really that hard to see where your analogy breaks down?

[mommam17]

The NGC or PCGS coin with a CAC sticker is found to be doctored. If CAC pays, is NGC or PCGS still liabel for the coin?

[Tradedollarnut]

In fact, it appears that a large majority of coins submitted are getting stickered

 

You are incorrect.

 

 

 

The TPG adjusted their grading standards to give the market what it wanted and turned MS64s into MS65s.

 

And who made the majority of the money off of this 'adjustment'? And who stood to make the majority of the money off the next 'adjustment'?

[Tradedollarnut]

Either I misunderstand how you're equating home insurance to coin grade insurance

 

If your insured home burns down, you collect from insurance. If your stickered coin is doctored, you collect from CAC.

 

Is it really that hard to see the analogy?

Let me clarify what I posted .

 

I CHOOSE MY OWN HOME INSURANCE. I DO NOT want someone else to choose how my coins are insured.

 

Is it really that hard to see where your analogy breaks down?

 

Who do you choose your Flood Insurance from?

 

If you wish, you can choose Eagle Eye stickers or CAC stickers or Halperin Exceptional coins, etc. Or, as has been stated many times, you can choose not to buy CAC stickered coins.

 

Please - you're not making a very good case for yourself here.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

In fact, it appears that a large majority of coins submitted are getting stickered

 

You are incorrect.

From the CACcoin website:

MR: Of all the vintage (non-modern) coins that exist in PCGS and NGC holders today, what percentage would you say would qualify for the CAC green label?

 

JA: I would say it’s a high percentage, upwards of 80% or so. We unveiled our service at a Connecticut show last fall. We offered free submissions to the public. Some 500-600 coins were brought to us of which about 85% were labeled.

[BillJones]

Last evening TDN posted the following disclosure ATS:

 

It is not a non profit organization. IIRC, I think I received a distribution check of $14,000 last quarter. Woohoo. [/eyeroll]

 

Aside from the fact that I don't regard $14k with a "Woohoo and an eyeroll" (My financial position, especially of late is a little too modest for that behavior.) I think you can see that some people do have financial motivations here. Now $14 grand might be "chump change" to some, but it probably does indicate the tip of the iceberg.

[James_OldeTowne]

Either I misunderstand how you're equating home insurance to coin grade insurance

 

If your insured home burns down, you collect from insurance. If your stickered coin is doctored, you collect from CAC.

 

Is it really that hard to see the analogy?

Let me clarify what I posted .

 

I CHOOSE MY OWN HOME INSURANCE. I DO NOT want someone else to choose how my coins are insured.

 

Is it really that hard to see where your analogy breaks down?

 

Who do you choose your Flood Insurance from?

 

If you wish, you can choose Eagle Eye stickers or CAC stickers or Halperin Exceptional coins, etc.

 

Please - you're not making a very good case for yourself here.

Wanna make a bet? First of all, I choose not to have flood insurance because I do not need it. Second of all, if I buy a coin with a sticker on it, REGARDLESS of whose sticker it is, then my choice of coin insurance has already been made by someone else.

 

On the contrary, I think my case is pretty solid.

[Tradedollarnut]

Last evening TDN posted the following disclosure ATS:

 

It is not a non profit organization. IIRC, I think I received a distribution check of $14,000 last quarter. Woohoo. [/eyeroll]

 

Aside from the fact that I don't regard $14k with a "Woohoo and an eyeroll" (My financial position, especially of late is a little too modest for that behavior.) I think you can see that some people do have financial motivations here. Now $14 grand might be "chump change" to some, but it probably does indicate the tip of the iceberg.

 

It doesn't matter if it's not chump change to you - what matters is whether or not it influenced my decision at all. I donated the $10k I won from PCGS in the World Series of Grading to the young numismatist program at the ANA - didn't want the money, didn't need the money and wanted to do right by the hobby. Why is it so hard to believe that my actions are consistent with my prior actions?

[gmarguli]

In fact, it appears that a large majority of coins submitted are getting stickered

 

You are incorrect.

 

Without some numbers from CAC this is opinion, not fact. Obviously, you may have better inside information, but all I hear is 60%-95% success rates. Maybe JA will post the numbers on his website...right after he posts what a sticker actually means.

 

Also, if too few coins are getting the sticker, then dealers won't support it and CAC will die or they will loosen up their standards. I'm going to ™ the term Stickerflation™ for when this happens.

 

 

The TPG adjusted their grading standards to give the market what it wanted and turned MS64s into MS65s.

 

And who made the majority of the money off of this 'adjustment'? And who stood to make the majority of the money off the next 'adjustment'?

 

The collectors who owned these coins. After all, didn't you say that the vast majority of coins are in collector hands? (I agree with that statement). Therefore, the most money was made by collectors. The TPG just took a nice cut.

[Tradedollarnut]

In fact, it appears that a large majority of coins submitted are getting stickered

 

You are incorrect.

From the CACcoin website:

MR: Of all the vintage (non-modern) coins that exist in PCGS and NGC holders today, what percentage would you say would qualify for the CAC green label?

 

JA: I would say it’s a high percentage, upwards of 80% or so. We unveiled our service at a Connecticut show last fall. We offered free submissions to the public. Some 500-600 coins were brought to us of which about 85% were labeled.

 

Ok, so the first 600 coins FROM COLLECTORS stickered at 85%. These were handpicked from their collections as the limit was 10 per collector. I have always stated that the vast majority of nice coins reside in collectors' collections and thus the lion's share of the benefit of CAC flows to COLLECTORS.

 

How many coins has CAC seen now? Don't you think it's quite a bit larger than 600?

[mommam17]

The first show was high, but now down under 50%, and about 50% for classic commems.

[gmarguli]

In fact, it appears that a large majority of coins submitted are getting stickered

 

You are incorrect.

From the CACcoin website:

MR: Of all the vintage (non-modern) coins that exist in PCGS and NGC holders today, what percentage would you say would qualify for the CAC green label?

 

JA: I would say it’s a high percentage, upwards of 80% or so. We unveiled our service at a Connecticut show last fall. We offered free submissions to the public. Some 500-600 coins were brought to us of which about 85% were labeled.

 

Ok, so the first 600 coins FROM COLLECTORS stickered at 85%. These were handpicked from their collections as the limit was 10 per collector. I have always stated that the vast majority of nice coins reside in collectors' collections and thus the lion's share of the benefit of CAC flows to COLLECTORS.

 

How many coins has CAC seen now? Don't you think it's quite a bit larger than 600?

 

But JA wasn't referring to just those coins from the show. He was referring to slabbed coins in general.

 

MR: Of all the vintage (non-modern) coins that exist in PCGS and NGC holders today, what percentage would you say would qualify for the CAC green label?

 

JA: I would say it’s a high percentage, upwards of 80% or so. (last line removed)

[James_OldeTowne]

Ok, so the first 600 coins FROM COLLECTORS stickered at 85%. These were handpicked from their collections as the limit was 10 per collector. I have always stated that the vast majority of nice coins reside in collectors' collections and thus the lion's share of the benefit of CAC flows to COLLECTORS.

 

How many coins has CAC seen now? Don't you think it's quite a bit larger than 600?

Well now, I'll bet that's a secret between you and CAC . Indeed, an awful lot seems to be "secret", such as which coins failed Stickertification™ .

[Tradedollarnut]

In fact, it appears that a large majority of coins submitted are getting stickered

 

You are incorrect.

 

Without some numbers from CAC this is opinion, not fact. Obviously, you may have better inside information, but all I hear is 60%-95% success rates. Maybe JA will post the numbers on his website...right after he posts what a sticker actually means.

 

Also, if too few coins are getting the sticker, then dealers won't support it and CAC will die or they will loosen up their standards. I'm going to ™ the term Stickerflation™ for when this happens.

 

 

The TPG adjusted their grading standards to give the market what it wanted and turned MS64s into MS65s.

 

And who made the majority of the money off of this 'adjustment'? And who stood to make the majority of the money off the next 'adjustment'?

 

The collectors who owned these coins. After all, didn't you say that the vast majority of coins are in collector hands? (I agree with that statement). Therefore, the most money was made by collectors. The TPG just took a nice cut.

 

Greg: I do believe that the overall sticker rate is under 40%. I would agree that collectors' coins will sticker at a higher percentage.

 

I disagree that collectors made the most money off the grading adjustment. I think that the TPG's and crack out artists did. The price guides barely budged, the grade on the label was the same - unless a collector understood what was happening they were sheep to the fleecing.

[WinstonWare]

I'm going to ™ the term Stickerflation™ for when this happens.

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Ok, so the first 600 coins FROM COLLECTORS stickered at 85%. These were handpicked from their collections as the limit was 10 per collector. I have always stated that the vast majority of nice coins reside in collectors' collections and thus the lion's share of the benefit of CAC flows to COLLECTORS.

 

How many coins has CAC seen now? Don't you think it's quite a bit larger than 600?

Well now, I'll bet that's a secret between you and CAC . Indeed, an awful lot seems to be "secret", such as which coins failed Stickertification™ .

 

James - I'm tired of all your insinuations and therefore I'm done addressing you. You don't like the concept, that's fine. Some of us don't want to buy a puttied coin in a TPG holder thus enriching a coin doctor. Since you don't care, kindly let us take the steps we need to in order to ensure that we don't.

[Tradedollarnut]

But JA wasn't referring to just those coins from the show. He was referring to slabbed coins in general.

 

I think his estimate was in error - and the last numbers I saw publicly posted were in the 35-40% range. Certainly if you exclude generic gold the numbers would be higher. Perhaps what he was referencing were the coins in collectors' hands - I don't know the context of the question.

 

I have not talked to JA in nearly a year - I have no 'secret inside information' whatsoever.

[Tradedollarnut]

I disagree that collectors made the most money off the grading adjustment. I think that the TPG's and crack out artists did. The price guides barely budged, the grade on the label was the same - unless a collector understood what was happening they were sheep to the fleecing.

 

Just wanted to emphasize this. In an environment where price guides weren't changing but grades were, unless the collector KNEW what was going on, he would lose out on a large part of the increase in value of his coins.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

James - I'm tired of all your insinuations and therefore I'm done addressing you. You don't like the concept, that's fine. Some of us don't want to buy a puttied coin in a TPG holder thus enriching a coin doctor. Since you don't care, kindly let us take the steps we need to in order to ensure that we don't.

You are wrong. I do not dislike at all the concept of a fourth opinion, as stated earlier. What I don't like is the concept being driven by an entity that intends to manipulate a large part of the coin market, as they have disclosed. You can always guarantee that you will not enrich coin doctors by simply not buying coins.

 

But in all fairness, I was about to make this concluding post anyway:

 

This CAC thread's been fun as always, and the most important thing I've taken from it is coinage of two new terms that I'm sure will be subject of much further discussion and derision:

 

Stickerflation™ (Greg) ... which led to ...

Stickertification™ (James)

 

[Tradedollarnut]

You can always guarantee that you will not enrich coin doctors by simply not buying coins.

 

No thanks - I choose to collect because I enjoy it. And you can always accomplish your goal by simply not buying a CAC stickered coin.

 

Funny how 'making a market in nice coins' becomes 'manipulate a large part of the coin market' to you. Once again, people just flat out make things up or twist them in the worst possible light.

 

[Bugmann1974]

From Page 4

So you think it's ok to buy a puttied coin for several times what it's worth enriching a coin doctor ... because you enjoy the coin and don't plan to sell.

 

Hmmmm.

 

I have a serious question, What is the percentage of coins in TPG slabs that have been found by CAC to be doctored?

 

No Answer yet.