Ethical Question?

[Toad]

Howdy peeps,

 

Someone brought this auction to my attention:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1944-P-JEFFERSON-NICKEL-NGC-MS67-FS-FINEST-REGIST-nt_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116QQhashZitem19b4b01f61QQitemZ110405623649QQptZCoinsQ5fUSQ5fIndividualQQsalenotsupported

 

I may be wrong but I thought to have the FS designation, NGC had to say it on the label but they didn't so if I am correct, the seller is being very unethical with his sales technique but what I find most interesting, is the very last thing he says on his Ebay page:

 

http://myworld.ebay.com/gotjacollectibles/

 

which was:

 

"NGC DEALER"

 

So is the seller ethical or unethical?

 

Ribbit

 

Ps: I hope I'm wrong and there's this little hidden rule at NGC that stipulates when a Jefferson is graded MS-67 or higher, it achieves that range only because it has full steps.

[praedator-migration]

I see this a lot on e-bay; sellers listing a NGC or PCGS graded coin without a designation, but in their title or description it is there (i.e. FS, FB). I don't really think this is either ethical or unethical. The seller you posted about seems to do this quite a bit, but he posts with a BIN or best offer. If someone is willing to pay those prices, then so be it. If he were somehow editing his images to represent full bands or full steps or whatever, then it's a whole new ballgame.

 

If I were purchasing such a coin, I certainly wouldn't pay those prices for certified coins without the designation.

[James_OldeTowne]

Someone's opinion can certainly be at odds with that of NGC or PCGS, or anyone else for that matter. I really don't see this as an unethical listing. Biased, certainly.

[MarkFeld]

Someone's opinion can certainly be at odds with that of NGC or PCGS, or anyone else for that matter. I really don't see this as an unethical listing. Biased, certainly.

Of course, a difference of opinion regarding grade/designation isn't unethical. But it shouldn't be included in the listing title as part of the grade that comes up in Ebay searches. That amounts to keyword spamming and is against Ebay policy.

[Toad]

If he were somehow editing his images to represent full bands or full steps or whatever, then it's a whole new ballgame.

 

If I were purchasing such a coin, I certainly wouldn't pay those prices for certified coins without the designation.

 

The seller put "(FS)" in the title, right behind "NGC MS-67" so to me, that's no different than editing the pics to make the steps look full step or even posting a pic of a different coin that has the FS designation. To show it is to say it and to say it is to show it, so what's the difference? The only difference I can see is you and I know better than to pay anywhere near that price but you and I are a minority on Ebay. Ebay is full of bidiots that don't have a clue what they're doing!

 

Ribbit

[praedator-migration]

Ebay is full of bidiots that don't have a clue what they're doing!

 

Well, I suppose that is what the seller is banking on. I can't really feel sorry for those people, however, so I don't feel like it is unethical. Well if the buyer was blind and couldn't see the pictures that clearly show that it is only graded MS67, then yes it would be unethical...

 

[gmarguli]

Of course, a difference of opinion regarding grade/designation isn't unethical. But it shouldn't be included in the listing title as part of the grade that comes up in Ebay searches. That amounts to keyword spamming and is against Ebay policy.

 

Not really. Keyword spamming would be putting PCGS in the subject line when the coin is not graded by PCGS. This seller puts FS in brackets (FS) to indicate that it was not graded with this designation. Perfectly acceptable with eBay rules. I do something similar and use a dash instead (i.e. 1960 50c PCGS PR66 - CAMEO).

 

BTW, the seller is Alan Hager of Accugrade infamy.

[MarkFeld]

Of course, a difference of opinion regarding grade/designation isn't unethical. But it shouldn't be included in the listing title as part of the grade that comes up in Ebay searches. That amounts to keyword spamming and is against Ebay policy.

 

Not really. Keyword spamming would be putting PCGS in the subject line when the coin is not graded by PCGS. This seller puts FS in brackets (FS) to indicate that it was not graded with this designation. Perfectly acceptable with eBay rules. I do something similar and use a dash instead (i.e. 1960 50c PCGS PR66 - CAMEO).

 

BTW, the seller is Alan Hager of Accugrade infamy.

Greg, I believe it is keyword spamming, as per Ebay's definition, below. "Details" and "item condition" seem to apply.

 

"Keyword spamming

Keyword spamming is when people use words or details (such as brands, item condition, model names, pop culture terms, product names, style, and type) that have nothing to do with their items so that their listings will show up in search results. Since this clutters eBay and makes buying and selling more difficult, we don't allow keyword spamming (see also brand names)."

 

[bsshog40]

Typical of an Ebay Spoon seller. I feel the auction would be more credible if the seller would've listed the (FS) in is description as his own opinion instead of putting it in the title to lure in unknowledgeable buyers.

[gmarguli]

Of course, a difference of opinion regarding grade/designation isn't unethical. But it shouldn't be included in the listing title as part of the grade that comes up in Ebay searches. That amounts to keyword spamming and is against Ebay policy.

 

Not really. Keyword spamming would be putting PCGS in the subject line when the coin is not graded by PCGS. This seller puts FS in brackets (FS) to indicate that it was not graded with this designation. Perfectly acceptable with eBay rules. I do something similar and use a dash instead (i.e. 1960 50c PCGS PR66 - CAMEO).

 

BTW, the seller is Alan Hager of Accugrade infamy.

Greg, I believe it is keyword spamming, as per Ebay's definition, below. "Details" and "item condition" seem to apply.

 

"Keyword spamming

Keyword spamming is when people use words or details (such as brands, item condition, model names, pop culture terms, product names, style, and type) that have nothing to do with their items so that their listings will show up in search results. Since this clutters eBay and makes buying and selling more difficult, we don't allow keyword spamming (see also brand names)."

 

I believe the key phrase there is that have nothing to do with their items so that their listings will show up in search results.. In this case the FS is directly related to the item. It is just a difference of a subjective opinion as to whether or not the item qualifies. Keyword spamming is to prevent things like BRAND NEW BLACK LEATHER PURSE - JUST LIKE GUCCI where the word Gucci is only there to snag the search engine only.

 

Here is what is not allowed according to eBay:

 

1) Calling out similarities—for example, when selling a DVD, don't talk about Blu-ray discs.

 

2) Comparisons between products aren't allowed. For example, you can't say things like "shirt not pants" or "video not Nano."

 

3) Descriptions that promote items in other listings. For example, a listing for shoes can't say things like, "Check out my other listings for hats, shirts, pants, coats, gloves, and underwear."

 

4) Hiding unrelated keywords in a listing by using white-on-white text, tiny fonts, or HTML or JavaScript code.

 

5) Keywords in any part of a listing that aren't related to the item you're selling. Here are some examples:

o If you're selling a shirt, the title can't say "Nike shirt size M – shoes, hat, shorts".

o If you're selling an MP3 player, the listing description can't have keywords like "purse, shoes, baseball hat, DVD, toys, cell phone, etc."

 

6) Words with question marks (such as "carved wood dresser – antique?"). If you're not sure about a detail, don't call it out at all because doing so can be misleading.

 

I've never had a single one of my auctions ended for keyword spamming and I use qualifiers all the time for designations not listed by the TPG.

[michael]

Someone's opinion can certainly be at odds with that of NGC or PCGS, or anyone else for that matter. I really don't see this as an unethical listing. Biased, certainly.

Of course, a difference of opinion regarding grade/designation isn't unethical. But it shouldn't be included in the listing title as part of the grade that comes up in Ebay searches. That amounts to keyword spamming and is against Ebay policy.

 

TOTALLY AGREE (thumbs u

[MarkFeld]

Of course, a difference of opinion regarding grade/designation isn't unethical. But it shouldn't be included in the listing title as part of the grade that comes up in Ebay searches. That amounts to keyword spamming and is against Ebay policy.

 

Not really. Keyword spamming would be putting PCGS in the subject line when the coin is not graded by PCGS. This seller puts FS in brackets (FS) to indicate that it was not graded with this designation. Perfectly acceptable with eBay rules. I do something similar and use a dash instead (i.e. 1960 50c PCGS PR66 - CAMEO).

 

BTW, the seller is Alan Hager of Accugrade infamy.

Greg, I believe it is keyword spamming, as per Ebay's definition, below. "Details" and "item condition" seem to apply.

 

"Keyword spamming

Keyword spamming is when people use words or details (such as brands, item condition, model names, pop culture terms, product names, style, and type) that have nothing to do with their items so that their listings will show up in search results. Since this clutters eBay and makes buying and selling more difficult, we don't allow keyword spamming (see also brand names)."

 

I believe the key phrase there is that have nothing to do with their items so that their listings will show up in search results.. In this case the FS is directly related to the item. It is just a difference of a subjective opinion as to whether or not the item qualifies. Keyword spamming is to prevent things like BRAND NEW BLACK LEATHER PURSE - JUST LIKE GUCCI where the word Gucci is only there to snag the search engine only.

 

Here is what is not allowed according to eBay:

 

1) Calling out similarities—for example, when selling a DVD, don't talk about Blu-ray discs.

 

2) Comparisons between products aren't allowed. For example, you can't say things like "shirt not pants" or "video not Nano."

 

3) Descriptions that promote items in other listings. For example, a listing for shoes can't say things like, "Check out my other listings for hats, shirts, pants, coats, gloves, and underwear."

 

4) Hiding unrelated keywords in a listing by using white-on-white text, tiny fonts, or HTML or JavaScript code.

 

5) Keywords in any part of a listing that aren't related to the item you're selling. Here are some examples:

o If you're selling a shirt, the title can't say "Nike shirt size M – shoes, hat, shorts".

o If you're selling an MP3 player, the listing description can't have keywords like "purse, shoes, baseball hat, DVD, toys, cell phone, etc."

 

6) Words with question marks (such as "carved wood dresser – antique?"). If you're not sure about a detail, don't call it out at all because doing so can be misleading.

 

I've never had a single one of my auctions ended for keyword spamming and I use qualifiers all the time for designations not listed by the TPG.

What about putting "MS70" in the title for a coin graded less than that? It seems like that's the same as uisng "FS", and I thought I had seen such listings pulled for keyword smamming.

[gmarguli]

What about putting "MS70" in the title for a coin graded less than that? It seems like that's the same as uisng "FS", and I thought I had seen such listings pulled for keyword smamming.

 

You cannot list a numeric grade in the auction title unless it is graded that by PCGS/NGC/ANACS/ICG. Therefore, if it is an NGC MS69 and you put NGC MS69 and MS70 in the title, it will violate the no numeric grade rule. You can list an NGC MS69 coin as NGC MS69 (PROOFLIKE / DCAM / FS / PQ).

[Schatzy]

IMO this seller is very unethical. The coin is in a new holder and if NGC didn't put

FS on the label then it wasn't FS.....plain and simple!! The seller always put (PL)

in his auctions when in fact the coin isn't PL.

 

 

Their is a reason the seller changed his name to GotJA!!

[MarkFeld]

What about putting "MS70" in the title for a coin graded less than that? It seems like that's the same as uisng "FS", and I thought I had seen such listings pulled for keyword smamming.

 

You cannot list a numeric grade in the auction title unless it is graded that by PCGS/NGC/ANACS/ICG. Therefore, if it is an NGC MS69 and you put NGC MS69 and MS70 in the title, it will violate the no numeric grade rule. You can list an NGC MS69 coin as NGC MS69 (PROOFLIKE / DCAM / FS / PQ).

In that case, why can you list a designation that isn't so designated by PCGS/NGC/ANACS/ICG.?

[lehigh96]

I feel like I woke up in the twilight zone. How anyone can think this is ethical is beyond me. The seller is taking a $100 coin with a population of 750/0 and claiming that it is a $1500-$3000 coin with a population of 18/0.

 

The coin does not have full steps on the label because it is not a full step coin. Then he lists the PCGS price guide price for an NGC encapsulated coin knowing full well there is a significant difference in grading standards between NGC and PCGS for Jefferson Nickels.

 

Furthermore, why would anyone who owned a 1944-P MS67 FS Jefferson Nickel sell the coin for $1100 when they could easily get $1500+ for it? If you can answer that question, you are better than me.

 

BTW. I own one of the 18.

[bgraphics-migration]

 

If you think its unethical then send him a message. I did. I know in the graphics biz you keep your prices at market value. That helps us all in keeping the prices stable. The same should be for coins. If this guy sells this coin for 1000+ then someone else will sure follow. I almost see the same happening with the 2009 nickel and dime, they are selling those for 30+. I can get these coins at my local bank in the mourning. And sell them but I would never do that. Its not right to prey on the weak.

 

 

[gmarguli]

What about putting "MS70" in the title for a coin graded less than that? It seems like that's the same as uisng "FS", and I thought I had seen such listings pulled for keyword smamming.

 

You cannot list a numeric grade in the auction title unless it is graded that by PCGS/NGC/ANACS/ICG. Therefore, if it is an NGC MS69 and you put NGC MS69 and MS70 in the title, it will violate the no numeric grade rule. You can list an NGC MS69 coin as NGC MS69 (PROOFLIKE / DCAM / FS / PQ).

In that case, why can you list a designation that isn't so designated by PCGS/NGC/ANACS/ICG.?

 

Because eBay is run by stupid and clueless people who know nothing about coins. The auction title rule wasn't even an eBay idea. It was pushed by the head of one of the TPG that wanted to reduce competition for slabbed coins.

[bgraphics-migration]

Up date; Gotcha's reply to me was quote "find another place to protest." I'll leave it at that...

[lehigh96]

While I find the listing disturbing, I am not a crusader and feel no duty to take action. I am a coin collector, not the coin police.

[bgraphics-migration]

While I find the listing disturbing, I am not a crusader and feel no duty to take action. I am a coin collector, not the coin police.

I'm not the police, never turned him into E-Bay. I just asked him why he was selling a coin with 100 value for 1100. thats all. and he got offended. Who knows he might just sell it for what its worth. But I dought it. His intention is to get someone. He sure made that clear with his name.

[EZ_E]

While I find the listing disturbing, I am not a crusader and feel no duty to take action. I am a coin collector, not the coin police.

I'm not the police, never turned him into E-Bay. I just asked him why he was selling a coin with 100 value for 1100. thats all. and he got offended. Who knows he might just sell it for what its worth. But I dought it. His intention is to get someone. He sure made that clear with his name.

 

As Greg mentioned, this guy owned the former Accugrade, the slimiest of all third party grading services in my personal experience. It is no surprise that he is still a major scammer in the coin market. And, like you said, his ebay name says it all.

[WinstonWare]

I can’t make out a single step. If I was going to sell something with a designation that wasn’t mentioned by NGC I would at least get a close-up image of it so buyers could make their own decision.

[Oldtrader3]

These discussions always degenerate into legalese and seem to miss the point altogether that this guy is spamming to label a coin as something it is not! When I see this nonsense on Ebay, I immediately hit the "BackSpace" key without reading further. This guy is a spammer-scammer! Until that coin is in a PCGS/NGC slab that says FS, it is not full steps, legally. At least not enough of a lure for me to bid on something that 99.999999999% of the time will not be what he says it is!

 

 

[Schatzy]

These discussions always degenerate into legalese and seem to miss the point altogether that this guy is spamming to label a coin as something it is not! When I see this nonsense on Ebay, I immediately hit the "BackSpace" key without reading further. This guy is a spammer-scammer! Until that coin is in a PCGS/NGC slab that says FS, it is not full steps, legally. At least not enough of a lure for me to bid on something that 99.999999999% of the time will not be what he says it is!

 

 

Well said......I agree 100%

[PerryHall]

With a name like "GOTJA COLLECTIBLES" you can't say you weren't warned.

[Toad]

What about putting "MS70" in the title for a coin graded less than that? It seems like that's the same as uisng "FS", and I thought I had seen such listings pulled for keyword smamming.

 

You cannot list a numeric grade in the auction title unless it is graded that by PCGS/NGC/ANACS/ICG. Therefore, if it is an NGC MS69 and you put NGC MS69 and MS70 in the title, it will violate the no numeric grade rule. You can list an NGC MS69 coin as NGC MS69 (PROOFLIKE / DCAM / FS / PQ).

 

Hey Mark,

 

Let's say I have a NGC MS-69 (anything) and I list it on Ebay as a MS-70 crackout. Is that wrong? Or how's 'bout a NGC MS-65 Morgan and I list it as a DMPL Cameo, when the grade it got was just a plain ole MS-65?

 

It's one thing to list the VAM or variety, when the TPG didn't but VAM's & varieties are not as subjective to opinion, but rather, based on facts. The FS designation isn't a VAM or variety, it's totally subjective to grading and while a seller can claim that it should have received said grade, they cannot say it received said grade unless it did, so the seller is clearly re-grading the coin themselves and that violates Ebay's TPG rule!

 

Accugrade is not an acceptable TPG so Accugrade may NOT provide grading/slabbing details, other than those provided by the accepted TPG's.

 

Ribbit

[gmarguli]

Until that coin is in a PCGS/NGC slab that says FS, it is not full steps, legally.

 

I'm positive that there is no legal definition of "full steps". NGC uses 6 steps. PCGS uses 5 steps. I use 1/9 of a step. It's all subjective.

[MarkFeld]

What about putting "MS70" in the title for a coin graded less than that? It seems like that's the same as uisng "FS", and I thought I had seen such listings pulled for keyword smamming.

 

You cannot list a numeric grade in the auction title unless it is graded that by PCGS/NGC/ANACS/ICG. Therefore, if it is an NGC MS69 and you put NGC MS69 and MS70 in the title, it will violate the no numeric grade rule. You can list an NGC MS69 coin as NGC MS69 (PROOFLIKE / DCAM / FS / PQ).

 

Hey Mark,

 

Let's say I have a NGC MS-69 (anything) and I list it on Ebay as a MS-70 crackout. Is that wrong? Or how's 'bout a NGC MS-65 Morgan and I list it as a DMPL Cameo, when the grade it got was just a plain ole MS-65?

 

It's one thing to list the VAM or variety, when the TPG didn't but VAM's & varieties are not as subjective to opinion, but rather, based on facts. The FS designation isn't a VAM or variety, it's totally subjective to grading and while a seller can claim that it should have received said grade, they cannot say it received said grade unless it did, so the seller is clearly re-grading the coin themselves and that violates Ebay's TPG rule!

 

Accugrade is not an acceptable TPG so Accugrade may NOT provide grading/slabbing details, other than those provided by the accepted TPG's.

 

Ribbit

In many, if not most cases, an opinion with respect to the grade is as or more subjective than the opinion regarding the designation.