Free shipping on e-bay? Never again!

[EZ_E]

I just lost my fanny at the post office!

Are we good on the rolls you sent me?

 

 

I was referring to the state quarter rolls that I just sold, not the deal we had. We're always cool, Lee.

[leeg]

We're always cool, Lee.

(thumbs u

[Jakeblue]

Once again, they ALWAYS state currency is only insured at face value. Obviously a hundred dollars is always a hundred dollars, so it WOULD appear that they are directing this disclaimer straight at collectable coins. Other collectables do not apply to this I believe. We also come back to the fact that TPG's always use registered mail. Maybe they know something we don't? It COULD be the claims people don't know this exemption, or just don't care. I just wish I could find out for sure.

 

Krypto can post all the assertions that he believes from his personal experieinces; regardless of what has or has not been actually paid out in claims when not using Registered mail.

 

The USPS policies are clear. Every postal clerk and manager at a branch or on the phone has confirmed that to assure a full payout for above face value US coins and currency, they must be Registered and insured for market value. As many has written, PCGS, NGC, et al, as well as Teletrade, most auction houses et al, all ship Registered. Why is that? Because the policy is clear. Moreover, it provides protection for the seller in cases of "I never received the coin". Registered mail is kept in a safe at the Post office when moving to the intended destination, which enhances the protection.

 

The average postal clerk does not know the rules of the Post Office. You'll get a different answer from every one of them to a simple question.

 

From the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM), Section 6.09 (Filing Indemnity Claims for Loss or Damage), Sub-Section 4.1 (Payable Claim), Part G states: Insurance for loss or damage to insured, registered, or COD mail within the amount covered by the fee paid or within the indemnity limits for Express Mail as explained in 4.2 is payable for the following: Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers.

 

It is very clear that collectible coins sent regular insured mail will been covered at their fair market value, not face value.

 

The TPG and auction houses use Registered Mail for a reason, it is the safest way to mail high value items and they are not paying the cost of the shipping. There is no dispute with who signed for the package or the mail man forgetting to get a signature with Registered Mail. It's best for their use, not necessarily yours.

 

(thumbs u

 

Again...you can stick you head in a regulations book or you can go out in the real world and have practical hands on experience and knowledge dealing with such things. I have been buying and selling on Ebay for 10 years......all I buy and sell are collectibles.......they are all shipped by me or two me using the USPS......and outside of a handful of very high dollar items......all have been shipped regular mail with insurance.

 

If you want to call these facts assertions....well then

 

Well, I could not agree more about assertions and if you are going to put something in print, find the facts and print them. So, if you are going to print the DMM, print the complete section to what you are quoting and not take something out of context.

 

Read sentence "o" below

 

"4.0 Claims

4.1 Payable Claim

Insurance for loss or damage to insured, registered, or COD mail within the amount covered by the fee paid or within the indemnity limits for Express Mail as explained in 4.2 is payable for the following:

 

a. Actual value of lost articles at the time and place of mailing (see 4.1n for bulk insured articles).

 

b. Cost of repairing a damaged article or replacing a totally damaged article not exceeding actual value of the article at the time of mailing.

 

c. Remittance due on a COD parcel not received by the sender, subject to the limitations set by the standards for COD service.

 

d. Reasonable costs incurred duplicating documents such as:

 

1. Copying service.

 

2. Notary fees.

 

3. Bonding fees for replacement of stock or bond certificates.

 

4. Reasonable attorney's fees if required to replace the lost or damaged documents.

 

5. Other direct and necessary expense or cost, as determined by the USPS.

 

6. Face value of negotiable documents that cannot be reconstructed up to the amount of insurance coverage bought, but not to exceed the $25,000 maximum amount of insurance coverage available if sent by Registered Mail.

 

e. Extra cost of gift wrapping, if the gift-wrapped article was enclosed in another container when mailed.

 

f. Cost of outer container, if designed and constructed for the article sent.

 

g. Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers.

 

h. Federal, state, or city sales tax paid on articles lost or totally damaged.

 

i. Postage (not fee) paid for sending damaged articles for repair. (The USPS must be used for this purpose. Other reasonable transportation charges may be included if the USPS is not available.)

 

j. Cost of film stock or blank tape for photographic film, negatives, slides, transparencies, videotapes, laser disks, x-rays, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) prints, computerized axial tomography (CAT) scan prints, etc.

 

k. Cost of bees, crickets, or baby poultry destroyed by physical damage to the package or delay for which the USPS is responsible. (In the absence of definite evidence showing responsibility for death of these insects or animals, the USPS is presumed to be at fault if 10% or more are dead on delivery, and pays indemnity for all dead bees, crickets, or poultry; if less than 10%, the USPS is not presumed to be at fault.)

 

l. Cost of filing a lost ticket report with the airline.

 

m. Per page copying cost of lost or damaged blueprints, schematics, etc.

 

n. For bulk insured articles, indemnity is provided for the lesser of (1) the actual value of the article at the time of mailing or (2) the wholesale cost of the contents to the sender.

 

o. Except for Registered Mail, the maximum indemnity for negotiable items (defined as instruments that can be converted to cash without resort to forgery), currency, or bullion, is $15.00. "

 

Now, we can argue if this sentence applies to "numis" valued currency. Instead, I simply called the USPS two different times today, and to be fair to the debate, I received two differing answers on if the value would be paid out if it was insured registered or not.

 

Conclusion as of this moment, is pick your poison. If you have received comp in a payout less than registered, good.

 

What is probably agreeable here is that the policy codes are conflicting and should be clairified so that a proper decision can be made by the consumer when shipping a $$ product based on enforcement interpretation of such, and not on perceived interpretation.

 

I have added below the section on "Express", which appears to be without ambiguity and both USPS reps agreed that sentence "c" applied to all currency; "numis value" included.

 

 

 

"4.2 Payable Express Mail Claim

In addition to the payable claims in 4.1, Payable Claim, the following are payable for Express Mail:

 

a. For Express Mail insurance, nonnegotiable documents are insured against loss, damage, or rifling while in transit. Coverage is limited to $100 per piece (the unit on which postage is paid), subject to a maximum limit per occurrence as provided in 4.2a4. Claims for document reconstruction insurance must be supported by a statement of expense incurred in reconstruction. For this standard, while in transit begins when the USPS receives custody of the insured material and ends when the material is delivered to the addressee or, if undeliverable, when the sender receives the material on return. Nonnegotiable documents include audit and business records, commercial papers, and such other written instruments for the conduct and operation of banks and banking institutions that have not been made negotiable or cannot be negotiated or converted into cash without forgery. Nonnegotiable documents can be in print, disk, tape, microfilm, or other forms of data storage. Articles such as artwork, collector or antique items, books, pamphlets, readers proofs, repro proofs, separation negatives, engineering drawings, blueprints, circulars, advertisements, film, negatives, and photographs are considered merchandise, not documents. Indemnity for document reconstruction is paid as follows:

 

1. For payments made (or which are payable) for reasonable costs incurred in the reconstruction of the exact duplicate of a lost or damaged nonnegotiable document. Indemnity is not paid for the cost of preparing the document mailed, or for the mailer's time in preparing the document mailed or reconstructed. Except for the per page copying cost, indemnity is not paid for documents if copies of the lost document are available or if they could have been made before mailing.

 

2. Reasonable reconstruction expenses incurred or obligated between the time of guaranteed or scheduled delivery and actual delivery.

 

3. Loss sustained by the use of funds to maintain cash balances during the period of document reconstruction (based on the applicable Federal Reserve discount price). The period begins at the scheduled delivery time and may not exceed 15 days.

 

4. Catastrophic loss for multiple Express Mail items, such as a major fire, limited to $5,000.00, regardless of the number of Express Mail items, or the identity or number of customers involved. Each claim resulting from a catastrophic loss first is adjudicated individually. If the preliminary adjudication exceeds $5,000.00, the percentage of the sum represented by each individual settlement is applied to the $5,000.00 to determine each claimant's pro rata share of the final settlement, not to exceed $100 per piece.

 

b. Merchandise insurance coverage is provided against loss, damage, or rifling and is limited to $100. (Additional insurance, up to a maximum liability of $5,000.00, may be purchased for merchandise valued at more than $100.)

 

c. For negotiable items, currency, or bullion, the maximum indemnity is $15.00."

 

 

[gmarguli]

Once again, they ALWAYS state currency is only insured at face value. Obviously a hundred dollars is always a hundred dollars, so it WOULD appear that they are directing this disclaimer straight at collectable coins. Other collectables do not apply to this I believe. We also come back to the fact that TPG's always use registered mail. Maybe they know something we don't? It COULD be the claims people don't know this exemption, or just don't care. I just wish I could find out for sure.

 

Krypto can post all the assertions that he believes from his personal experieinces; regardless of what has or has not been actually paid out in claims when not using Registered mail.

 

The USPS policies are clear. Every postal clerk and manager at a branch or on the phone has confirmed that to assure a full payout for above face value US coins and currency, they must be Registered and insured for market value. As many has written, PCGS, NGC, et al, as well as Teletrade, most auction houses et al, all ship Registered. Why is that? Because the policy is clear. Moreover, it provides protection for the seller in cases of "I never received the coin". Registered mail is kept in a safe at the Post office when moving to the intended destination, which enhances the protection.

 

The average postal clerk does not know the rules of the Post Office. You'll get a different answer from every one of them to a simple question.

 

From the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM), Section 6.09 (Filing Indemnity Claims for Loss or Damage), Sub-Section 4.1 (Payable Claim), Part G states: Insurance for loss or damage to insured, registered, or COD mail within the amount covered by the fee paid or within the indemnity limits for Express Mail as explained in 4.2 is payable for the following: Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers.

 

It is very clear that collectible coins sent regular insured mail will been covered at their fair market value, not face value.

 

The TPG and auction houses use Registered Mail for a reason, it is the safest way to mail high value items and they are not paying the cost of the shipping. There is no dispute with who signed for the package or the mail man forgetting to get a signature with Registered Mail. It's best for their use, not necessarily yours.

 

(thumbs u

 

Again...you can stick you head in a regulations book or you can go out in the real world and have practical hands on experience and knowledge dealing with such things. I have been buying and selling on Ebay for 10 years......all I buy and sell are collectibles.......they are all shipped by me or two me using the USPS......and outside of a handful of very high dollar items......all have been shipped regular mail with insurance.

 

If you want to call these facts assertions....well then

 

Well, I could not agree more about assertions and if you are going to put something in print, find the facts and print them. So, if you are going to print the DMM, print the complete section to what you are quoting and not take something out of context.

 

Read sentence "o" below

 

"4.0 Claims

4.1 Payable Claim

Insurance for loss or damage to insured, registered, or COD mail within the amount covered by the fee paid or within the indemnity limits for Express Mail as explained in 4.2 is payable for the following:

 

a. Actual value of lost articles at the time and place of mailing (see 4.1n for bulk insured articles).

 

b. Cost of repairing a damaged article or replacing a totally damaged article not exceeding actual value of the article at the time of mailing.

 

c. Remittance due on a COD parcel not received by the sender, subject to the limitations set by the standards for COD service.

 

d. Reasonable costs incurred duplicating documents such as:

 

1. Copying service.

 

2. Notary fees.

 

3. Bonding fees for replacement of stock or bond certificates.

 

4. Reasonable attorney's fees if required to replace the lost or damaged documents.

 

5. Other direct and necessary expense or cost, as determined by the USPS.

 

6. Face value of negotiable documents that cannot be reconstructed up to the amount of insurance coverage bought, but not to exceed the $25,000 maximum amount of insurance coverage available if sent by Registered Mail.

 

e. Extra cost of gift wrapping, if the gift-wrapped article was enclosed in another container when mailed.

 

f. Cost of outer container, if designed and constructed for the article sent.

 

g. Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers.

 

h. Federal, state, or city sales tax paid on articles lost or totally damaged.

 

i. Postage (not fee) paid for sending damaged articles for repair. (The USPS must be used for this purpose. Other reasonable transportation charges may be included if the USPS is not available.)

 

j. Cost of film stock or blank tape for photographic film, negatives, slides, transparencies, videotapes, laser disks, x-rays, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) prints, computerized axial tomography (CAT) scan prints, etc.

 

k. Cost of bees, crickets, or baby poultry destroyed by physical damage to the package or delay for which the USPS is responsible. (In the absence of definite evidence showing responsibility for death of these insects or animals, the USPS is presumed to be at fault if 10% or more are dead on delivery, and pays indemnity for all dead bees, crickets, or poultry; if less than 10%, the USPS is not presumed to be at fault.)

 

l. Cost of filing a lost ticket report with the airline.

 

m. Per page copying cost of lost or damaged blueprints, schematics, etc.

 

n. For bulk insured articles, indemnity is provided for the lesser of (1) the actual value of the article at the time of mailing or (2) the wholesale cost of the contents to the sender.

 

o. Except for Registered Mail, the maximum indemnity for negotiable items (defined as instruments that can be converted to cash without resort to forgery), currency, or bullion, is $15.00. "

 

Now, we can argue if this sentence applies to "numis" valued currency. Instead, I simply called the USPS two different times today, and to be fair to the debate, I received two differing answers on if the value would be paid out if it was insured registered or not.

 

Conclusion as of this moment, is pick your poison. If you have received comp in a payout less than registered, good.

 

What is probably agreeable here is that the policy codes are conflicting and should be clairified so that a proper decision can be made by the consumer when shipping a $$ product based on enforcement interpretation of such, and not on perceived interpretation.

 

I have added below the section on "Express", which appears to be without ambiguity and both USPS reps agreed that sentence "c" applied to all currency; "numis value" included.

 

 

 

"4.2 Payable Express Mail Claim

In addition to the payable claims in 4.1, Payable Claim, the following are payable for Express Mail:

 

a. For Express Mail insurance, nonnegotiable documents are insured against loss, damage, or rifling while in transit. Coverage is limited to $100 per piece (the unit on which postage is paid), subject to a maximum limit per occurrence as provided in 4.2a4. Claims for document reconstruction insurance must be supported by a statement of expense incurred in reconstruction. For this standard, while in transit begins when the USPS receives custody of the insured material and ends when the material is delivered to the addressee or, if undeliverable, when the sender receives the material on return. Nonnegotiable documents include audit and business records, commercial papers, and such other written instruments for the conduct and operation of banks and banking institutions that have not been made negotiable or cannot be negotiated or converted into cash without forgery. Nonnegotiable documents can be in print, disk, tape, microfilm, or other forms of data storage. Articles such as artwork, collector or antique items, books, pamphlets, readers proofs, repro proofs, separation negatives, engineering drawings, blueprints, circulars, advertisements, film, negatives, and photographs are considered merchandise, not documents. Indemnity for document reconstruction is paid as follows:

 

1. For payments made (or which are payable) for reasonable costs incurred in the reconstruction of the exact duplicate of a lost or damaged nonnegotiable document. Indemnity is not paid for the cost of preparing the document mailed, or for the mailer's time in preparing the document mailed or reconstructed. Except for the per page copying cost, indemnity is not paid for documents if copies of the lost document are available or if they could have been made before mailing.

 

2. Reasonable reconstruction expenses incurred or obligated between the time of guaranteed or scheduled delivery and actual delivery.

 

3. Loss sustained by the use of funds to maintain cash balances during the period of document reconstruction (based on the applicable Federal Reserve discount price). The period begins at the scheduled delivery time and may not exceed 15 days.

 

4. Catastrophic loss for multiple Express Mail items, such as a major fire, limited to $5,000.00, regardless of the number of Express Mail items, or the identity or number of customers involved. Each claim resulting from a catastrophic loss first is adjudicated individually. If the preliminary adjudication exceeds $5,000.00, the percentage of the sum represented by each individual settlement is applied to the $5,000.00 to determine each claimant's pro rata share of the final settlement, not to exceed $100 per piece.

 

b. Merchandise insurance coverage is provided against loss, damage, or rifling and is limited to $100. (Additional insurance, up to a maximum liability of $5,000.00, may be purchased for merchandise valued at more than $100.)

 

c. For negotiable items, currency, or bullion, the maximum indemnity is $15.00."

 

 

Let me repeat: The average postal clerk does not know the rules of the Post Office. You'll get a different answer from every one of them to a simple question.

 

The DMM is several hundred pages. Should we post it all?

 

It is incredibly clear from Part G that they understand philatelic and numismatic value and do not fall under Part O. They also don't fall under Express Mail Part C. However, if you look under International Express Mail you will see that collectible coins are excluded from coverage.

 

Sorry, but a rare coin is not considered currency. If it is worth more than face value, it is a collectible.

 

I've had multiple claims paid for lost coins. I've heard from numerous others that have had claims paid. Not a single time have I ever heard of a claim being denied.

[kryptonitecomics]

Greg I couldn't agree more.....as a matter of fact I mailed a coin yesterday in Orlando and I sent it First Class insured in a bubble mailer and I specifically asked the Postal Worker who I have known for years if the rare coin got lost, would the Post Office pay me the full insured value. he stated that as long as I had proof of the value/cost of the con like a bill of sale etc....then yes the PO is obligated to re-imburse me for the coin. Now thats not an assumption or an assertion on my part.....that's straight from the horses mouth.

[WinstonWare]

You need to have a receipt for the coin itself? For some reason I had it in my head that your receipt of from the post office and the insurance slip were sufficient. No?

[gbsten]

Hmmm....what's the story with Registered/Insured mail? It would appear that anything sent Registered is covered for loss. So what is the sense of purchasing insurance? Seems as if it would be redundant! Not to mention that Registered insurance costs a fortune. A very confusing subject and it seems we've opened a good debate! Keep it going...but be nice ().

[gmarguli]

You need to have a receipt for the coin itself? For some reason I had it in my head that your receipt of from the post office and the insurance slip were sufficient. No?

 

You don't need a receipt, but it helps. You basically need some paperwork saying what was in the package and a way for the Post Office to value it.

 

eBay sales are the easiest. Just include a copy of the auction.

[WinstonWare]

You need to have a receipt for the coin itself? For some reason I had it in my head that your receipt of from the post office and the insurance slip were sufficient. No?

 

You don't need a receipt, but it helps. You basically need some paperwork saying what was in the package and a way for the Post Office to value it.

 

eBay sales are the easiest. Just include a copy of the auction.

 

Oh right . Thanks Greg

[gmarguli]

Hmmm....what's the story with Registered/Insured mail? It would appear that anything sent Registered is covered for loss. So what is the sense of purchasing insurance? Seems as if it would be redundant! Not to mention that Registered insurance costs a fortune. A very confusing subject and it seems we've opened a good debate! Keep it going...but be nice ().

 

Domestic Registered Mail automatically includes insurance for the declared value of the item being mailed up to $25,000. Above that you still have to declare full value, but only $25,000 of insurance is provided. Fail to do that and your claim is in trouble.

[gbsten]

Hmmm....what's the story with Registered/Insured mail? It would appear that anything sent Registered is covered for loss. So what is the sense of purchasing insurance? Seems as if it would be redundant! Not to mention that Registered insurance costs a fortune. A very confusing subject and it seems we've opened a good debate! Keep it going...but be nice ().

 

Domestic Registered Mail automatically includes insurance for the declared value of the item being mailed up to $25,000. Above that you still have to declare full value, but only $25,000 of insurance is provided. Fail to do that and your claim is in trouble.

 

So...why does NGC charge me $13.30 for a $1,000.00 of insurance? I don't believe I have an option NOT to purchase!!!!

[gmarguli]

Hmmm....what's the story with Registered/Insured mail? It would appear that anything sent Registered is covered for loss. So what is the sense of purchasing insurance? Seems as if it would be redundant! Not to mention that Registered insurance costs a fortune. A very confusing subject and it seems we've opened a good debate! Keep it going...but be nice ().

 

Domestic Registered Mail automatically includes insurance for the declared value of the item being mailed up to $25,000. Above that you still have to declare full value, but only $25,000 of insurance is provided. Fail to do that and your claim is in trouble.

 

So...why does NGC charge me $13.30 for a $1,000.00 of insurance? I don't believe I have an option NOT to purchase!!!!

 

That $13.30 is the (old) USPS rate for Registered Mail with $1000 insurance. Since the Post Office bundles them together, you cannot buy Registered Mail without insurance. NGC charges you their cost.

 

You can have NGC use Express Mail or FedEx if you like and don't need to pay for insurance. Of course, you're not covered if it gets lost.

[Houston Investor]

Unfortunately because of many buyers who complain about shipping cost sellers simply add the estimated shipping to the price and let the listing have "free shipping." A good rule of thumb used by many is the matrix Teletrade has. Heavier items like rolls make this more difficult. Considering the expense of operating on Ebay, I am sure many sellers have to mark up their material at least 35% above cost to realize a modest 10% commission in terms of real P&L. Its a common perception among dealers it takes a markup of 40% over cost to make in the coin business. 10c on the dollar ain't gonna cut it.

 

In the coin business you need to be sure your Gross Margin (Sales - Cost of Sales) is greter than your operating (overhead) expenses! The maze of fees ebay / paypal charges can make this calculation difficult.

 

I would recommend a section in your spreadsheet to take cost x minumum required mark up factor (MUF) (say to give a desired return of 10%) plus $5 (items less than $200) or $10 tack on for shipping in most instances. Example: You acquire a US gold coin for $300 via online auction. $300 x 1.34 (24% operating cost MUF + 10% commission) = $402. $402 + shipping tackon of $10 = $412 (minimum retail with "free shipping"). CW Trends (Market Value) happens to be $500. You price the coin at $450, a fair discounted price and are still well above minimum retail leaving lots of green in front of you. A sharp dealer will run these types of numbers before he ever bids on the item.

 

 

[Jakeblue]

Once again, they ALWAYS state currency is only insured at face value. Obviously a hundred dollars is always a hundred dollars, so it WOULD appear that they are directing this disclaimer straight at collectable coins. Other collectables do not apply to this I believe. We also come back to the fact that TPG's always use registered mail. Maybe they know something we don't? It COULD be the claims people don't know this exemption, or just don't care. I just wish I could find out for sure.

 

Krypto can post all the assertions that he believes from his personal experieinces; regardless of what has or has not been actually paid out in claims when not using Registered mail.

 

The USPS policies are clear. Every postal clerk and manager at a branch or on the phone has confirmed that to assure a full payout for above face value US coins and currency, they must be Registered and insured for market value. As many has written, PCGS, NGC, et al, as well as Teletrade, most auction houses et al, all ship Registered. Why is that? Because the policy is clear. Moreover, it provides protection for the seller in cases of "I never received the coin". Registered mail is kept in a safe at the Post office when moving to the intended destination, which enhances the protection.

 

The average postal clerk does not know the rules of the Post Office. You'll get a different answer from every one of them to a simple question.

 

From the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM), Section 6.09 (Filing Indemnity Claims for Loss or Damage), Sub-Section 4.1 (Payable Claim), Part G states: Insurance for loss or damage to insured, registered, or COD mail within the amount covered by the fee paid or within the indemnity limits for Express Mail as explained in 4.2 is payable for the following: Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers.

 

It is very clear that collectible coins sent regular insured mail will been covered at their fair market value, not face value.

 

The TPG and auction houses use Registered Mail for a reason, it is the safest way to mail high value items and they are not paying the cost of the shipping. There is no dispute with who signed for the package or the mail man forgetting to get a signature with Registered Mail. It's best for their use, not necessarily yours.

 

(thumbs u

 

Again...you can stick you head in a regulations book or you can go out in the real world and have practical hands on experience and knowledge dealing with such things. I have been buying and selling on Ebay for 10 years......all I buy and sell are collectibles.......they are all shipped by me or two me using the USPS......and outside of a handful of very high dollar items......all have been shipped regular mail with insurance.

 

If you want to call these facts assertions....well then

 

Well, I could not agree more about assertions and if you are going to put something in print, find the facts and print them. So, if you are going to print the DMM, print the complete section to what you are quoting and not take something out of context.

 

Read sentence "o" below

 

"4.0 Claims

4.1 Payable Claim

Insurance for loss or damage to insured, registered, or COD mail within the amount covered by the fee paid or within the indemnity limits for Express Mail as explained in 4.2 is payable for the following:

 

a. Actual value of lost articles at the time and place of mailing (see 4.1n for bulk insured articles).

 

b. Cost of repairing a damaged article or replacing a totally damaged article not exceeding actual value of the article at the time of mailing.

 

c. Remittance due on a COD parcel not received by the sender, subject to the limitations set by the standards for COD service.

 

d. Reasonable costs incurred duplicating documents such as:

 

1. Copying service.

 

2. Notary fees.

 

3. Bonding fees for replacement of stock or bond certificates.

 

4. Reasonable attorney's fees if required to replace the lost or damaged documents.

 

5. Other direct and necessary expense or cost, as determined by the USPS.

 

6. Face value of negotiable documents that cannot be reconstructed up to the amount of insurance coverage bought, but not to exceed the $25,000 maximum amount of insurance coverage available if sent by Registered Mail.

 

e. Extra cost of gift wrapping, if the gift-wrapped article was enclosed in another container when mailed.

 

f. Cost of outer container, if designed and constructed for the article sent.

 

g. Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers.

 

h. Federal, state, or city sales tax paid on articles lost or totally damaged.

 

i. Postage (not fee) paid for sending damaged articles for repair. (The USPS must be used for this purpose. Other reasonable transportation charges may be included if the USPS is not available.)

 

j. Cost of film stock or blank tape for photographic film, negatives, slides, transparencies, videotapes, laser disks, x-rays, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) prints, computerized axial tomography (CAT) scan prints, etc.

 

k. Cost of bees, crickets, or baby poultry destroyed by physical damage to the package or delay for which the USPS is responsible. (In the absence of definite evidence showing responsibility for death of these insects or animals, the USPS is presumed to be at fault if 10% or more are dead on delivery, and pays indemnity for all dead bees, crickets, or poultry; if less than 10%, the USPS is not presumed to be at fault.)

 

l. Cost of filing a lost ticket report with the airline.

 

m. Per page copying cost of lost or damaged blueprints, schematics, etc.

 

n. For bulk insured articles, indemnity is provided for the lesser of (1) the actual value of the article at the time of mailing or (2) the wholesale cost of the contents to the sender.

 

o. Except for Registered Mail, the maximum indemnity for negotiable items (defined as instruments that can be converted to cash without resort to forgery), currency, or bullion, is $15.00. "

 

Now, we can argue if this sentence applies to "numis" valued currency. Instead, I simply called the USPS two different times today, and to be fair to the debate, I received two differing answers on if the value would be paid out if it was insured registered or not.

 

Conclusion as of this moment, is pick your poison. If you have received comp in a payout less than registered, good.

 

What is probably agreeable here is that the policy codes are conflicting and should be clairified so that a proper decision can be made by the consumer when shipping a $$ product based on enforcement interpretation of such, and not on perceived interpretation.

 

I have added below the section on "Express", which appears to be without ambiguity and both USPS reps agreed that sentence "c" applied to all currency; "numis value" included.

 

 

 

"4.2 Payable Express Mail Claim

In addition to the payable claims in 4.1, Payable Claim, the following are payable for Express Mail:

 

a. For Express Mail insurance, nonnegotiable documents are insured against loss, damage, or rifling while in transit. Coverage is limited to $100 per piece (the unit on which postage is paid), subject to a maximum limit per occurrence as provided in 4.2a4. Claims for document reconstruction insurance must be supported by a statement of expense incurred in reconstruction. For this standard, while in transit begins when the USPS receives custody of the insured material and ends when the material is delivered to the addressee or, if undeliverable, when the sender receives the material on return. Nonnegotiable documents include audit and business records, commercial papers, and such other written instruments for the conduct and operation of banks and banking institutions that have not been made negotiable or cannot be negotiated or converted into cash without forgery. Nonnegotiable documents can be in print, disk, tape, microfilm, or other forms of data storage. Articles such as artwork, collector or antique items, books, pamphlets, readers proofs, repro proofs, separation negatives, engineering drawings, blueprints, circulars, advertisements, film, negatives, and photographs are considered merchandise, not documents. Indemnity for document reconstruction is paid as follows:

 

1. For payments made (or which are payable) for reasonable costs incurred in the reconstruction of the exact duplicate of a lost or damaged nonnegotiable document. Indemnity is not paid for the cost of preparing the document mailed, or for the mailer's time in preparing the document mailed or reconstructed. Except for the per page copying cost, indemnity is not paid for documents if copies of the lost document are available or if they could have been made before mailing.

 

2. Reasonable reconstruction expenses incurred or obligated between the time of guaranteed or scheduled delivery and actual delivery.

 

3. Loss sustained by the use of funds to maintain cash balances during the period of document reconstruction (based on the applicable Federal Reserve discount price). The period begins at the scheduled delivery time and may not exceed 15 days.

 

4. Catastrophic loss for multiple Express Mail items, such as a major fire, limited to $5,000.00, regardless of the number of Express Mail items, or the identity or number of customers involved. Each claim resulting from a catastrophic loss first is adjudicated individually. If the preliminary adjudication exceeds $5,000.00, the percentage of the sum represented by each individual settlement is applied to the $5,000.00 to determine each claimant's pro rata share of the final settlement, not to exceed $100 per piece.

 

b. Merchandise insurance coverage is provided against loss, damage, or rifling and is limited to $100. (Additional insurance, up to a maximum liability of $5,000.00, may be purchased for merchandise valued at more than $100.)

 

c. For negotiable items, currency, or bullion, the maximum indemnity is $15.00."

 

 

Let me repeat: The average postal clerk does not know the rules of the Post Office. You'll get a different answer from every one of them to a simple question.

 

The DMM is several hundred pages. Should we post it all?

 

It is incredibly clear from Part G that they understand philatelic and numismatic value and do not fall under Part O. They also don't fall under Express Mail Part C. However, if you look under International Express Mail you will see that collectible coins are excluded from coverage.

 

Sorry, but a rare coin is not considered currency. If it is worth more than face value, it is a collectible.

 

I've had multiple claims paid for lost coins. I've heard from numerous others that have had claims paid. Not a single time have I ever heard of a claim being denied.

 

As it is, currrency is all types of money, both rare and modern. There is not a distinction made in the reference to "numis value" as opposed to the currency clause.

If it is up for interpretation as to the intent by the very people that enforce it, then it should be clarified.

 

You can repeat all you want, but it will not change the facts of the language. The cost at certain values, is near negligble if shipping Registered v. Other class with full insurance and confirmation.

 

As far as posting it all, yep if that will make the point as opposed to your taking it out of context it, post away.

 

[jtryka]

Wow, this thread sure veered off course!

[EZ_E]

Then you've gotta figure 35% for income taxes.

[gmarguli]

As it is, currrency is all types of money, both rare and modern. There is not a distinction made in the reference to "numis value" as opposed to the currency clause.

If it is up for interpretation as to the intent by the very people that enforce it, then it should be clarified.

 

Umm, there is a distinction made - clearly made. It's Part G: Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers. Clear as can be. You're free to interpret it all you want, but it's clear to everyone else.

[Jakeblue]

As it is, currrency is all types of money, both rare and modern. There is not a distinction made in the reference to "numis value" as opposed to the currency clause.

If it is up for interpretation as to the intent by the very people that enforce it, then it should be clarified.

 

Umm, there is a distinction made - clearly made. It's Part G: Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers. Clear as can be. You're free to interpret it all you want, but it's clear to everyone else.

 

Wrong, clearly Part O has been interpreted "except for registered" shipping by some USPS reps. So, it is not clear to everyone else. Understand the point?

[gmarguli]

As it is, currrency is all types of money, both rare and modern. There is not a distinction made in the reference to "numis value" as opposed to the currency clause.

If it is up for interpretation as to the intent by the very people that enforce it, then it should be clarified.

 

Umm, there is a distinction made - clearly made. It's Part G: Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers. Clear as can be. You're free to interpret it all you want, but it's clear to everyone else.

 

Wrong, clearly Part O has been interpreted "except for registered" shipping by some USPS reps. So, it is not clear to everyone else. Understand the point?

 

I said it several times, the USPS reps are not knowledgeable about postal regulations.

 

I bet these same USPS reps would tell you that Registered Mail packages must be sealed at all openings with that paper tape. Right? They'd be incorrect in that also. Not many people know that and I've only encountered one clerk that was aware of this.

[Jakeblue]

As it is, currrency is all types of money, both rare and modern. There is not a distinction made in the reference to "numis value" as opposed to the currency clause.

If it is up for interpretation as to the intent by the very people that enforce it, then it should be clarified.

 

Umm, there is a distinction made - clearly made. It's Part G: Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers. Clear as can be. You're free to interpret it all you want, but it's clear to everyone else.

 

Wrong, clearly Part O has been interpreted "except for registered" shipping by some USPS reps. So, it is not clear to everyone else. Understand the point?

 

I said it several times, the USPS reps are not knowledgeable about postal regulations.

 

I bet these same USPS reps would tell you that Registered Mail packages must be sealed at all openings with that paper tape. Right? They'd be incorrect in that also. Not many people know that and I've only encountered one clerk that was aware of this.

 

It is not only the USPS Clerks, but some phone center reps as well. A few here posted their uncertainty earlier in this thread.

 

Now, you add fuel to the fire by adding something that only reiterates the need for some of the postal regs to be clarified. With lighter fluid in hand, every single time I have shipped registered or received registered mail, it has been sealed with paper tape tighter than a new pair of leather shoes a size too small. Also, every single USPS rep has either advised or refused to mail my package unless it was as the example provided.

 

Now, I have not searched the DMM for the specific policy, and frankly I am not going to. If you have it, fine, post it.

 

The new point you are making only solidifies the need for revising certain policies and properly educating the workers on the correct interpretation of the language. Then, we all win by having a more consistent service when utililizing those services.

[kryptonitecomics]

As it is, currrency is all types of money, both rare and modern. There is not a distinction made in the reference to "numis value" as opposed to the currency clause.

If it is up for interpretation as to the intent by the very people that enforce it, then it should be clarified.

 

Umm, there is a distinction made - clearly made. It's Part G: Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers. Clear as can be. You're free to interpret it all you want, but it's clear to everyone else.

 

Wrong, clearly Part O has been interpreted "except for registered" shipping by some USPS reps. So, it is not clear to everyone else. Understand the point?

 

It's clear that how you are interpreting the language and how Greg and I are interpreting that same language is clearly miles apart but you seem to think your right and everyone else is wrong based on.....? We have already told you that in the practical sense we are correct as we have potentially dozens of examples of situations where claims were paid based on fair market value and not currency value.

 

As for your interpretation....you are certainly welcome to it but this is like not going over the speed limit 5 miles and hour because the law says you have to go the speed limit. On paper it's real nice but out of the millions of folks speeding daily.....do the cops typically issue situations for doing 45 in a 40 zone......the short answer is no. If you wish to be bound by limitations that have no affect on the rest of us because you believe the rules are written that way then hey.....I am not going to try to stop you

[Jakeblue]

As it is, currrency is all types of money, both rare and modern. There is not a distinction made in the reference to "numis value" as opposed to the currency clause.

If it is up for interpretation as to the intent by the very people that enforce it, then it should be clarified.

 

Umm, there is a distinction made - clearly made. It's Part G: Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers. Clear as can be. You're free to interpret it all you want, but it's clear to everyone else.

 

Wrong, clearly Part O has been interpreted "except for registered" shipping by some USPS reps. So, it is not clear to everyone else. Understand the point?

 

It's clear that how you are interpreting the language and how Greg and I are interpreting that same language is clearly miles apart but you seem to think your right and everyone else is wrong based on.....? We have already told you that in the practical sense we are correct as we have potentially dozens of examples of situations where claims were paid based on fair market value and not currency value.

 

As for your interpretation....you are certainly welcome to it but this is like not going over the speed limit 5 miles and hour because the law says you have to go the speed limit. On paper it's real nice but out of the millions of folks speeding daily.....do the cops typically issue situations for doing 45 in a 40 zone......the short answer is no. If you wish to be bound by limitations that have no affect on the rest of us because you believe the rules are written that way then hey.....I am not going to try to stop you

 

The only thing I can make sense of your post is that you fail to recognize that many USPS reps and the casual mailer who listens to them, is interpreting the language in a different way. Is it wrong? Depends on who you ask and what is their baseline interpretation. I suppose you mean if the officer told you it was okay to speed above the limit or go below it would be okay because the officer said it was? Okay, have at it.

 

As you and the other poster have stated, it has been applied in a practical sense without failure in your experiences. Again, good.

 

That does not detract what others have been advised to by the reps and how it might be interpreted differently. Quick example: ASE bullion: Agree? ASE can have "numis value" Agree? Potential for interpretation differently than your personal experience? I say yes. Now, if you send it Registered with full value, covered, yes? If you send any other way with full insurance, is it covered? If you stated "numis value", and send it First Class, were you wrong? Same argument with currency. Again, asking the people who should know will deliver varied responses. That is where the problem lies.

[kryptonitecomics]

As it is, currrency is all types of money, both rare and modern. There is not a distinction made in the reference to "numis value" as opposed to the currency clause.

If it is up for interpretation as to the intent by the very people that enforce it, then it should be clarified.

 

Umm, there is a distinction made - clearly made. It's Part G: Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers. Clear as can be. You're free to interpret it all you want, but it's clear to everyone else.

 

Wrong, clearly Part O has been interpreted "except for registered" shipping by some USPS reps. So, it is not clear to everyone else. Understand the point?

 

It's clear that how you are interpreting the language and how Greg and I are interpreting that same language is clearly miles apart but you seem to think your right and everyone else is wrong based on.....? We have already told you that in the practical sense we are correct as we have potentially dozens of examples of situations where claims were paid based on fair market value and not currency value.

 

As for your interpretation....you are certainly welcome to it but this is like not going over the speed limit 5 miles and hour because the law says you have to go the speed limit. On paper it's real nice but out of the millions of folks speeding daily.....do the cops typically issue situations for doing 45 in a 40 zone......the short answer is no. If you wish to be bound by limitations that have no affect on the rest of us because you believe the rules are written that way then hey.....I am not going to try to stop you

 

The only thing I can make sense of your post is that you fail to recognize that many USPS reps and the casual mailer who listens to them, is interpreting the language in a different way. Is it wrong? Depends on who you ask and what is their baseline interpretation. I suppose you mean if the officer told you it was okay to speed above the limit or go below it would be okay because the officer said it was? Okay, have at it.

 

As you and the other poster have stated, it has been applied in a practical sense without failure in your experiences. Again, good.

 

That does not detract what others have been advised to by the reps and how it might be interpreted differently. Quick example: ASE bullion: Agree? ASE can have "numis value" Agree? Potential for interpretation differently than your personal experience? I say yes. Now, if you send it Registered with full value, covered, yes? If you send any other way with full insurance, is it covered? If you stated "numis value", and send it First Class, were you wrong? Same argument with currency. Again, asking the people who should know will deliver varied responses. That is where the problem lies.

 

The only thing you can make sense of in my post? I think I have been very clear and articulate as to where I stand and where the post office has stood for me and just about everyone else on the planet for at least 10 years of collectibles shipping......what don't you understand? I never said the PO doesn't provide misinformation...so if that's your platform for continuing this debate then I completely agree with you on that point.

 

I suppose you mean if the officer told you it was okay to speed above the limit or go below it would be okay because the officer said it was?

 

No I never said the officer told anyone to do anything....it makes no difference if they tell you too or not...the simple fact that seems to be too much for you to grasp is that just becuase a law or regulation is in writing does not mean they enforce it. Plus I still feel like you are misinterpreting it anyway as it looks like the section Greg posted is sort of like an amendment to the first section. Bottom line...if you are going to a post office and filing claims for lost coins that were shipped regular mail insured and they aren't paying your claims.....then you need to switch post offices. Is this the case...? I don't believe you have ever stated that, you are just stating your opinion of how we should read the regulation without any practical experiece with actually filing said claim......you know the practical experience Greg and I actully have?

[Jakeblue]

As it is, currrency is all types of money, both rare and modern. There is not a distinction made in the reference to "numis value" as opposed to the currency clause.

If it is up for interpretation as to the intent by the very people that enforce it, then it should be clarified.

 

Umm, there is a distinction made - clearly made. It's Part G: Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers. Clear as can be. You're free to interpret it all you want, but it's clear to everyone else.

 

Wrong, clearly Part O has been interpreted "except for registered" shipping by some USPS reps. So, it is not clear to everyone else. Understand the point?

 

It's clear that how you are interpreting the language and how Greg and I are interpreting that same language is clearly miles apart but you seem to think your right and everyone else is wrong based on.....? We have already told you that in the practical sense we are correct as we have potentially dozens of examples of situations where claims were paid based on fair market value and not currency value.

 

As for your interpretation....you are certainly welcome to it but this is like not going over the speed limit 5 miles and hour because the law says you have to go the speed limit. On paper it's real nice but out of the millions of folks speeding daily.....do the cops typically issue situations for doing 45 in a 40 zone......the short answer is no. If you wish to be bound by limitations that have no affect on the rest of us because you believe the rules are written that way then hey.....I am not going to try to stop you

 

The only thing I can make sense of your post is that you fail to recognize that many USPS reps and the casual mailer who listens to them, is interpreting the language in a different way. Is it wrong? Depends on who you ask and what is their baseline interpretation. I suppose you mean if the officer told you it was okay to speed above the limit or go below it would be okay because the officer said it was? Okay, have at it.

 

As you and the other poster have stated, it has been applied in a practical sense without failure in your experiences. Again, good.

 

That does not detract what others have been advised to by the reps and how it might be interpreted differently. Quick example: ASE bullion: Agree? ASE can have "numis value" Agree? Potential for interpretation differently than your personal experience? I say yes. Now, if you send it Registered with full value, covered, yes? If you send any other way with full insurance, is it covered? If you stated "numis value", and send it First Class, were you wrong? Same argument with currency. Again, asking the people who should know will deliver varied responses. That is where the problem lies.

 

The only thing you can make sense of in my post? I think I have been very clear and articulate as to where I stand and where the post office has stood for me and just about everyone else on the planet for at least 10 years of collectibles shipping......what don't you understand? I never said the PO doesn't provide misinformation...so if that's your platform for continuing this debate then I completely agree with you on that point.

 

I suppose you mean if the officer told you it was okay to speed above the limit or go below it would be okay because the officer said it was?

 

No I never said the officer told anyone to do anything....it makes no difference if they tell you too or not...the simple fact that seems to be too much for you to grasp is that just becuase a law or regulation is in writing does not mean they enforce it. Plus I still feel like you are misinterpreting it anyway as it looks like the section Greg posted is sort of like an amendment to the first section. Bottom line...if you are going to a post office and filing claims for lost coins that were shipped regular mail insured and they aren't paying your claims.....then you need to switch post offices. Is this the case...? I don't believe you have ever stated that, you are just stating your opinion of how we should read the regulation without any practical experiece with actually filing said claim......you know the practical experience Greg and I actully have?

 

At this point of the this thread, I have made my points and as I have written: Good for both of you with your practical experiences. I don't have any problems with any shipping with USPS. While I will trust your experiences, the main gist is that it may not be applied in a verbatim sense because of the perceived ambiguity as promulgated by the very reps that are charged with the execution and application of such.

 

Yes, of course, situational circumstances can affect enforcement and can also affect intrepretation; not just with USPS, but in many aspects of American life.

 

I propose a truce on the matter, and to take the high road, that you and the other poster are correct in your factual experiences and I will retain my own experiences with how the policies have been (verbally) interpreted by some USPS personnel.

 

 

[gbsten]

Once again, they ALWAYS state currency is only insured at face value. Obviously a hundred dollars is always a hundred dollars, so it WOULD appear that they are directing this disclaimer straight at collectable coins. Other collectables do not apply to this I believe. We also come back to the fact that TPG's always use registered mail. Maybe they know something we don't? It COULD be the claims people don't know this exemption, or just don't care. I just wish I could find out for sure.

 

Krypto can post all the assertions that he believes from his personal experieinces; regardless of what has or has not been actually paid out in claims when not using Registered mail.

 

The USPS policies are clear. Every postal clerk and manager at a branch or on the phone has confirmed that to assure a full payout for above face value US coins and currency, they must be Registered and insured for market value. As many has written, PCGS, NGC, et al, as well as Teletrade, most auction houses et al, all ship Registered. Why is that? Because the policy is clear. Moreover, it provides protection for the seller in cases of "I never received the coin". Registered mail is kept in a safe at the Post office when moving to the intended destination, which enhances the protection.

 

The average postal clerk does not know the rules of the Post Office. You'll get a different answer from every one of them to a simple question.

 

From the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM), Section 6.09 (Filing Indemnity Claims for Loss or Damage), Sub-Section 4.1 (Payable Claim), Part G states: Insurance for loss or damage to insured, registered, or COD mail within the amount covered by the fee paid or within the indemnity limits for Express Mail as explained in 4.2 is payable for the following: Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers.

 

It is very clear that collectible coins sent regular insured mail will been covered at their fair market value, not face value.

 

The TPG and auction houses use Registered Mail for a reason, it is the safest way to mail high value items and they are not paying the cost of the shipping. There is no dispute with who signed for the package or the mail man forgetting to get a signature with Registered Mail. It's best for their use, not necessarily yours.

 

(thumbs u

 

Again...you can stick you head in a regulations book or you can go out in the real world and have practical hands on experience and knowledge dealing with such things. I have been buying and selling on Ebay for 10 years......all I buy and sell are collectibles.......they are all shipped by me or two me using the USPS......and outside of a handful of very high dollar items......all have been shipped regular mail with insurance.

 

If you want to call these facts assertions....well then

 

Well, I could not agree more about assertions and if you are going to put something in print, find the facts and print them. So, if you are going to print the DMM, print the complete section to what you are quoting and not take something out of context.

 

Read sentence "o" below

 

"4.0 Claims

4.1 Payable Claim

Insurance for loss or damage to insured, registered, or COD mail within the amount covered by the fee paid or within the indemnity limits for Express Mail as explained in 4.2 is payable for the following:

 

a. Actual value of lost articles at the time and place of mailing (see 4.1n for bulk insured articles).

 

b. Cost of repairing a damaged article or replacing a totally damaged article not exceeding actual value of the article at the time of mailing.

 

c. Remittance due on a COD parcel not received by the sender, subject to the limitations set by the standards for COD service.

 

d. Reasonable costs incurred duplicating documents such as:

 

1. Copying service.

 

2. Notary fees.

 

3. Bonding fees for replacement of stock or bond certificates.

 

4. Reasonable attorney's fees if required to replace the lost or damaged documents.

 

5. Other direct and necessary expense or cost, as determined by the USPS.

 

6. Face value of negotiable documents that cannot be reconstructed up to the amount of insurance coverage bought, but not to exceed the $25,000 maximum amount of insurance coverage available if sent by Registered Mail.

 

e. Extra cost of gift wrapping, if the gift-wrapped article was enclosed in another container when mailed.

 

f. Cost of outer container, if designed and constructed for the article sent.

 

g. Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers.

 

h. Federal, state, or city sales tax paid on articles lost or totally damaged.

 

i. Postage (not fee) paid for sending damaged articles for repair. (The USPS must be used for this purpose. Other reasonable transportation charges may be included if the USPS is not available.)

 

j. Cost of film stock or blank tape for photographic film, negatives, slides, transparencies, videotapes, laser disks, x-rays, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) prints, computerized axial tomography (CAT) scan prints, etc.

 

k. Cost of bees, crickets, or baby poultry destroyed by physical damage to the package or delay for which the USPS is responsible. (In the absence of definite evidence showing responsibility for death of these insects or animals, the USPS is presumed to be at fault if 10% or more are dead on delivery, and pays indemnity for all dead bees, crickets, or poultry; if less than 10%, the USPS is not presumed to be at fault.)

 

l. Cost of filing a lost ticket report with the airline.

 

m. Per page copying cost of lost or damaged blueprints, schematics, etc.

 

n. For bulk insured articles, indemnity is provided for the lesser of (1) the actual value of the article at the time of mailing or (2) the wholesale cost of the contents to the sender.

 

o. Except for Registered Mail, the maximum indemnity for negotiable items (defined as instruments that can be converted to cash without resort to forgery), currency, or bullion, is $15.00. "

 

Now, we can argue if this sentence applies to "numis" valued currency. Instead, I simply called the USPS two different times today, and to be fair to the debate, I received two differing answers on if the value would be paid out if it was insured registered or not.

 

Conclusion as of this moment, is pick your poison. If you have received comp in a payout less than registered, good.

 

What is probably agreeable here is that the policy codes are conflicting and should be clairified so that a proper decision can be made by the consumer when shipping a $$ product based on enforcement interpretation of such, and not on perceived interpretation.

 

I have added below the section on "Express", which appears to be without ambiguity and both USPS reps agreed that sentence "c" applied to all currency; "numis value" included.

 

 

 

"4.2 Payable Express Mail Claim

In addition to the payable claims in 4.1, Payable Claim, the following are payable for Express Mail:

 

a. For Express Mail insurance, nonnegotiable documents are insured against loss, damage, or rifling while in transit. Coverage is limited to $100 per piece (the unit on which postage is paid), subject to a maximum limit per occurrence as provided in 4.2a4. Claims for document reconstruction insurance must be supported by a statement of expense incurred in reconstruction. For this standard, while in transit begins when the USPS receives custody of the insured material and ends when the material is delivered to the addressee or, if undeliverable, when the sender receives the material on return. Nonnegotiable documents include audit and business records, commercial papers, and such other written instruments for the conduct and operation of banks and banking institutions that have not been made negotiable or cannot be negotiated or converted into cash without forgery. Nonnegotiable documents can be in print, disk, tape, microfilm, or other forms of data storage. Articles such as artwork, collector or antique items, books, pamphlets, readers proofs, repro proofs, separation negatives, engineering drawings, blueprints, circulars, advertisements, film, negatives, and photographs are considered merchandise, not documents. Indemnity for document reconstruction is paid as follows:

 

1. For payments made (or which are payable) for reasonable costs incurred in the reconstruction of the exact duplicate of a lost or damaged nonnegotiable document. Indemnity is not paid for the cost of preparing the document mailed, or for the mailer's time in preparing the document mailed or reconstructed. Except for the per page copying cost, indemnity is not paid for documents if copies of the lost document are available or if they could have been made before mailing.

 

2. Reasonable reconstruction expenses incurred or obligated between the time of guaranteed or scheduled delivery and actual delivery.

 

3. Loss sustained by the use of funds to maintain cash balances during the period of document reconstruction (based on the applicable Federal Reserve discount price). The period begins at the scheduled delivery time and may not exceed 15 days.

 

4. Catastrophic loss for multiple Express Mail items, such as a major fire, limited to $5,000.00, regardless of the number of Express Mail items, or the identity or number of customers involved. Each claim resulting from a catastrophic loss first is adjudicated individually. If the preliminary adjudication exceeds $5,000.00, the percentage of the sum represented by each individual settlement is applied to the $5,000.00 to determine each claimant's pro rata share of the final settlement, not to exceed $100 per piece.

 

b. Merchandise insurance coverage is provided against loss, damage, or rifling and is limited to $100. (Additional insurance, up to a maximum liability of $5,000.00, may be purchased for merchandise valued at more than $100.)

 

c. For negotiable items, currency, or bullion, the maximum indemnity is $15.00."

 

 

Let me repeat: The average postal clerk does not know the rules of the Post Office. You'll get a different answer from every one of them to a simple question.

 

The DMM is several hundred pages. Should we post it all?

 

It is incredibly clear from Part G that they understand philatelic and numismatic value and do not fall under Part O. They also don't fall under Express Mail Part C. However, if you look under International Express Mail you will see that collectible coins are excluded from coverage.

 

Sorry, but a rare coin is not considered currency. If it is worth more than face value, it is a collectible.

 

I've had multiple claims paid for lost coins. I've heard from numerous others that have had claims paid. Not a single time have I ever heard of a claim being denied.

 

Well, here we go again! I just left the post office where I was informed that ANY currency is only insured to $15.00 max, including collectible coins. Kind of a double standard since philatelic items ARE covered to full value. I guess if you are sending a "cheap coin" first-class insured is ok, but if you are sending a nice coin it looks like it HAS to go registered! I even took the DMM page with me and discussed it with the manager. He pointed out ANY other item would be covered in full, but that there IS a limit of $15.00 of liability on money, coins, and bullion unless it is sent registered.

I pointed out that several people have stated their claims have been paid in excess of this limit. He agreed that it is a confusing policy, and that it is sometimes incorrectly interpreted and applied, but that for a coin to be fully (and correctly) covered it MUST be insured by registered mail. He said it's up to me if I want to "roll the dice", but with a $600.00 coin I thought $20.00 was worth the peace of mind. His statement, seeming to make sense, was that a coin is still legal tender no matter how collectible, and is therefore properly defined as currency and subject to the $15 max.

[TomB]

The postal employee was wrong and the USPS will pay out the insurance policy when the coin is lost.

[Conder101]

I just lost my fanny at the post office! The items were heavy rolls. Wasn't sure what shipping would be but they were too heavy for first class so they all went priority. Cost me $50 and the total sales was only $660 not including ebay and paypal fees

Haven't read the whole thread yet but my gosh what were you selling? 280 pounds weight in coin rolls? You ship almost 700 rolls of cents for $50. ($50 will buy 4 large size flat rate Priority Mail boxes each of which is allowed to ship up to 70 pounds in weight.)

[Bugmann1974]

Conder, I would assume individual rolls when to different addresses.

[Bruceswar]

I do selling on e-bay and we ship worldwide for free sometimes. Sometimes that shipping is $50 to -$100 for one package. Sure it might eat into profits, but it is sure a great catch to get people in.

[Conder101]

Conder, I would assume individual rolls when to different addresses.

OK, that would make sense.