Cost to submit coins to CAC?

[MarkFeld]

How many grading arbitration claims have you won with a grading service, Mark?

 

If authenticity is the issue, you might win, but grading, it’s just an opinion.

I don't think I've submitted anything to NGC for down-grade in years. And the last two I tried at PCGS, they agreed and lowered the grade.

[James_OldeTowne]

I see VERY few CAC coins at shows. The number of CAC-only buyers is practically non-existent. Prices for CAC coins seem to be no better than non-CAC coins.

 

Maybe they sticker a ton of coins, but I don't see them or much (any) demand for them from a vast majority of the market.

Greg, I see fairly large quantities of CAC stickered coins at most shows that I attend - roughly 15 per year - as well as in major coin auctions.

 

Regarding the prices - my observation is that in many cases, CAC stickered NGC coins trade on par with PCGS coins of the same grade. I think that's one significant indication of CAC's impact.

It looks like another thread going down the CAC tube ! Without wanting to stir the pot whatsoever, I think it necessary to present a counterpoint to Mark's assertion to keep things balanced. I have also seen very, very few stickered coins at shows in the midwest. In fact, there are probably some shows with 120+ tables where I see fewer than 10 stickered coins on the entire bourse! And in the recent Scotsman Auction, out of some 1500 coins I cataloged, I would guess maybe three had stickers (and one of those was very poor for the grade, as I told Mr. Albanese over the phone).

 

And I DON'T think one can say "stickered coins aren't for sale as much because collectors are holding onto them". If anything, believe me when I say that something is guaranteed to show up more often in dealers' cases if it's something that leads to higher demand and prices!!!!!!! If stickers truly get buyers foaming at the mouth, then every dealer and his mother would be getting every slab stickered that he can.

[Just Bob]

I wonder if there was this much dissent when the grading services were evolving 20 plus years ago.

 

As I recall, there was quite a bit of discussion, and a few letters to the editors of the trade publications, but there were no online forums back then, so it took a week (or a month) to read the responses. Times have changed...

[mommam17]

PCGS and NGC have been around for over 20 years using multiples of graders. CAC has been around for less than 2 years and 1 man looks at all coins. Yes, there are other CAC graders. I would think only a very small amount of PCGS and NGC coins have been submitted to CAC. East coast will dominate because of New Jersey headquarters and free grading at Coinfest.

[bartlesvilleok]

My main issue with CAC is that I would think that sticker would be easy to copy. If not copied then how easy would it be to remove from one coin that put on a different one that doesn't met the grade?

 

I would think that maybe a different sticker that had some type of number on it that you could verify online might fix this. Also not just the coin that the CAC sticker belongs to but also the holder it was put on (grading company, grade, and cert number)

 

 

[MarkFeld]

My main issue with CAC is that I would think that sticker would be easy to copy. If not copied then how easy would it be to remove from one coin that put on a different one that doesn't met the grade?

 

I would think that maybe a different sticker that had some type of number on it that you could verify online might fix this. Also not just the coin that the CAC sticker belongs to but also the holder it was put on (grading company, grade, and cert number)

 

The CAC stickers are designed so that they cannot be removed from one holder and placed on another. Also, their website allows you to verify the unique ID # of an NGC or PCGS coin as one that has received a CAC sticker.

[EZ_E]

Scott B, I always appreciate and admire your input and I always love Greg's eye of newt and wool of bat retorts. Well done, gents.

 

I somewhat agree with the CAC mission statement as long as the sticker isn't made out to be something that it's not, i.e. always PQ for the grade. Yet, I'm glad that it is not a widespread phenomenon that holds dealer and collector alike in a full nelson. If I can see a coin in hand, I could usually tell if the coin is PQ or not but, although I've never taken advantage of the opportunity, I would have more confidence purchasing a coin online with the sticker than not.

 

 

[DC Dawg]

Scott B, I always appreciate and admire your input and I always love Greg's eye of newt and wool of bat retorts. Well done, gents.

Thank you. I wonder if anyone reads my stuff!

 

Scott

[oreville-migration]

Hmmm, looks like this thread deviated from answering the original poster's question?

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Hmmm, looks like this thread deviated from answering the original poster's question?

I'm not so sure. The question was about "cost", but "cost" can involve more than just the "price of admission" !

 

One last thing, since this has become yet another de-facto "what I love/hate about CAC": my biggest complaint about the whole concept is that there still is no indication of what their so-called "grading standard" is, other than some blurbs on full bell lines for Franklin halves. In other words, the CAC "grading standard", as far as I can see, truly is nothing more than the whims of a single person (John Albanese). Thus, it's a win-win situation. Nobody can critique CAC's "grading standard" since there really isn't one, yet they can claim to adhere to a strictly grading standard since one person strictly does all the reviewing.

 

Please no silly arguments that PCGS/NGC don't publish a grading standard either. Their body of work does in fact offer the equivalent of a published standard, given the volume of certified coins graded on a contiuum scale (and not just a boolean "pass/fail" scale like CAC).

[PerryHall]

I've had the same experience. Can someone provide a list of dealers that specialize in CAC coins?

 

http://www.caccoin.com/submission-centers/

 

Thanks. If any of these CAC dealers have expensive coins without the CAC sticker, I'm going to assume they were submitted and rejected by CAC for some deficiency.

[EZ_E]

James, I have a suggestion for you:

 

Not only are you an advanced numismatist and a competent grader but you are also in a position to evaluate CAC coins that pass through your hands.

 

I'd like to see you keep a complete statistical record of the CAC coins that you see and record how they measure up, e.g. PQ, average or below average for the grade.

 

I double dog dare ya!

[DC Dawg]

Please no silly arguments that PCGS/NGC don't publish a grading standard either. Their body of work does in fact offer the equivalent of a published standard, given the volume of certified coins graded on a contiuum scale (and not just a boolean "pass/fail" scale like CAC).

Doesn't NGC and PCGS have book published on grading standards? There's The Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection by PCGS and NGC Grading Guide For Modern U.S. Coins. Both can also say they follow the ANA standard, which is published in its own book.

 

Even James Halprin of Heritage Auction Galleries published a book on coin grading (ok... that was back in 1990, but still... )

 

NGC and PCGS publishes their population reports. We can find out the number of coins they graded for a particular type and grade. I have not seen any reports from CAC except one anecdotal statement here.

 

From the beginning of the CAC and the "discussions" it has raised, I have always contended that their worth would be in what they found... the statistics. Before I embrace this concept of a fourth party grading service, I want to see the statistics. I want to see the number of how many coins they have reviewed, by which third party grading service, and their pass/fail ratio by coin type as well as their gold/green ratio by service and coin type. I want to see the raw numbers because as the old saying goes, figures never lie, but liars figure!

 

Scott

[BillJones]

James, I have a suggestion for you:

 

Not only are you an advanced numismatist and a competent grader but you are also in a position to evaluate CAC coins that pass through your hands.

 

I'd like to see you keep a complete statistical record of the CAC coins that you see and record how they measure up, e.g. PQ, average or below average for the grade.

 

I double dog dare ya!

 

I guess this could become a new service, critiquing the validity of the CAC sticker on a coin by coin basis. In essence we could have a third layer of certification: confirming the verification of the original certification. You may use that as the motto for your new company James.

 

Seriously it’s a mystery to me why those who advocate and use CAC as a marketing strategy are so surprised, incensed and angered when some of us object to the results of this service. When someone sets up a company that threatens to lower the value other people’s collections unless they pony up and pay money to the CAC Corporation, you can hardly expect those who have to pay to be pleased with that.

 

And, no, CAC verification of the grades will not remain “voluntary” if the sticker takes hold as an industry standard for verifying the grades of coins of that have already been certified by PCGS and NGC. In essence we are looking at a situation where all coins over a given value would have to be certified twice and that stinks. Given that it will be incumbent upon CAC to become a full service grading firm and not just “an advisory network” as it now. When CAC makes itself into a one stop slabbing service, it will be on the road to earning the respect that its advocates think it deserves.

 

[BillJones]

I wonder if there was this much dissent when the grading services were evolving 20 plus years ago.

 

There was some dissent, but it was partially blunted by the fact virtually everyone acknowledged that counterfeits were a problem with some issues of coins and that the ANACS papers were inadequate. ANACS was going through their grading standards fiasco which ultimately put the company permanently in second class status. That provided the opening for PCGS and then NGC to take most of the coin grading market

[MarkFeld]

I've had the same experience. Can someone provide a list of dealers that specialize in CAC coins?

 

http://www.caccoin.com/submission-centers/

 

Thanks. If any of these CAC dealers have expensive coins without the CAC sticker, I'm going to assume they were submitted and rejected by CAC for some deficiency.

That wouldn't be very smart. There are a number of reasons that dealers who are authorized to submit to CAC would/could have non-CAC coins that haven't been submitted to CAC.

[James_OldeTowne]

James, I have a suggestion for you:

 

Not only are you an advanced numismatist and a competent grader but you are also in a position to evaluate CAC coins that pass through your hands.

 

I'd like to see you keep a complete statistical record of the CAC coins that you see and record how they measure up, e.g. PQ, average or below average for the grade.

 

I double dog dare ya!

As a matter of fact , I am doing just that ....

[WinstonWare]

I’m still a little confused by CAC or, more specifically, how collectors should view CAC approved coins. For instance, what if an early federal coin is delightfully original with a circulated cameo appearance but really isn’t strong for the grade and doesn’t receive CAC approval. That coin is still entirely welcome in my collection. However, I have seen coins that appear unoriginal with little eye appeal yet have received CAC stickers. Presumably these coins are strong for the grade. Nevertheless, they still aren’t welcome in my collection.

 

It seems to me that the CAC sticker is more a reflection on the grader of the coin than the coin itself. Is that right?

 

[MarkFeld]

I’m still a little confused by CAC or, more specifically, how collectors should view CAC approved coins. For instance, what if an early federal coin is delightfully original with a circulated cameo appearance but really isn’t strong for the grade and doesn’t receive CAC approval. That coin is still entirely welcome in my collection. However, I have seen coins that appear unoriginal with little eye appeal yet have received CAC stickers. Presumably these coins are strong for the grade. Nevertheless, they still aren’t welcome in my collection.

 

It seems to me that the CAC sticker is more a reflection on the grader of the coin than the coin itself. Is that right?

Each grader has his own level of expertise, as well as personal likes, dislikes and biases. And, since grading is not a science, the grade which is assigned by a grader is an opinion, though some opinions are far more informed than others.

 

I am glad that you collect what pleases you. By the way, as a dealer, I still frequently pass on coins which I believe to be accurately graded, but which, for one reason or another, I don't like. In your words (with one change) "they still aren’t welcome in my inventory".

[Treeman]

"I somewhat agree with the CAC mission statement as long as the sticker isn't made out to be something that it's not, i.e. always PQ for the grade."

 

The "confusion" stems from the CAC stating that they would only sticker "PQ" coins, then later changing it to "Acceptable for the grade" (ie: "B" coins).

 

My only problem with the CAC is the little annoying stickers are hard to remove from the slab....

[Mark T]

I’m still a little confused by CAC or, more specifically, how collectors should view CAC approved coins. For instance, what if an early federal coin is delightfully original with a circulated cameo appearance but really isn’t strong for the grade and doesn’t receive CAC approval. That coin is still entirely welcome in my collection. However, I have seen coins that appear unoriginal with little eye appeal yet have received CAC stickers. Presumably these coins are strong for the grade. Nevertheless, they still aren’t welcome in my collection.

 

It seems to me that the CAC sticker is more a reflection on the grader of the coin than the coin itself. Is that right?

Each grader has his own level of expertise, as well as personal likes, dislikes and biases. And, since grading is not a science, the grade which is assigned by a grader is an opinion, though some opinions are far more informed than others.

 

I am glad that you collect what pleases you. By the way, as a dealer, I still frequently pass on coins which I believe to be accurately graded, but which, for one reason or another, I don't like. In your words (with one change) "they still aren’t welcome in my inventory".

 

Technically speaking grading is a science, the grades given are the opinion of how that science is interpreted.

 

 

[Mark T]

"I somewhat agree with the CAC mission statement as long as the sticker isn't made out to be something that it's not, i.e. always PQ for the grade."

 

The "confusion" stems from the CAC stating that they would only sticker "PQ" coins, then later changing it to "Acceptable for the grade" (ie: "B" coins).

 

My only problem with the CAC is the little annoying stickers are hard to remove from the slab....

 

The stickers are meant to be difficult to remove . Why would you want to remove the sticker in the first place ?

[MarkFeld]

I’m still a little confused by CAC or, more specifically, how collectors should view CAC approved coins. For instance, what if an early federal coin is delightfully original with a circulated cameo appearance but really isn’t strong for the grade and doesn’t receive CAC approval. That coin is still entirely welcome in my collection. However, I have seen coins that appear unoriginal with little eye appeal yet have received CAC stickers. Presumably these coins are strong for the grade. Nevertheless, they still aren’t welcome in my collection.

 

It seems to me that the CAC sticker is more a reflection on the grader of the coin than the coin itself. Is that right?

Each grader has his own level of expertise, as well as personal likes, dislikes and biases. And, since grading is not a science, the grade which is assigned by a grader is an opinion, though some opinions are far more informed than others.

 

I am glad that you collect what pleases you. By the way, as a dealer, I still frequently pass on coins which I believe to be accurately graded, but which, for one reason or another, I don't like. In your words (with one change) "they still aren’t welcome in my inventory".

 

Technically speaking grading is a science, the grades given are the opinion of how that science is interpreted.

 

Technically speaking, since eye-appeal is a major component of grading, grading is not a science.

[gmarguli]

Thanks. If any of these CAC dealers have expensive coins without the CAC sticker, I'm going to assume they were submitted and rejected by CAC for some deficiency.

That wouldn't be very smart. There are a number of reasons that dealers who are authorized to submit to CAC would/could have non-CAC coins that haven't been submitted to CAC.

 

Just as the marketplace looks at a raw coin in a slab dealer's inventory as a problem coin, the marketplace will look at a non-CAC coin in a CAC dealer's inventory as being a pig. Fair or not, that is what will happen.

 

I looked at your web site yesterday and actually looked to see if the non-CAC coins would have your usual disclaimer about why CAC didn't give them a sticker. I automatically assumed that the non-CAC coins were rejects. I highly doubt I am the only one.

 

It used to be "live by the slab, die by the slab". Some dealers apparently needed more pain, and whether intentional or not, they added "live by the sticker, die by the sticker".

[gmarguli]

From the beginning of the CAC and the "discussions" it has raised, I have always contended that their worth would be in what they found... the statistics. Before I embrace this concept of a fourth party grading service, I want to see the statistics. I want to see the number of how many coins they have reviewed, by which third party grading service, and their pass/fail ratio by coin type as well as their gold/green ratio by service and coin type. I want to see the raw numbers because as the old saying goes, figures never lie, but liars figure!

 

This isn't a good measure. Just look at crossovers between PCGS & NGC.

[MarkFeld]

Thanks. If any of these CAC dealers have expensive coins without the CAC sticker, I'm going to assume they were submitted and rejected by CAC for some deficiency.

That wouldn't be very smart. There are a number of reasons that dealers who are authorized to submit to CAC would/could have non-CAC coins that haven't been submitted to CAC.

 

Just as the marketplace looks at a raw coin in a slab dealer's inventory as a problem coin, the marketplace will look at a non-CAC coin in a CAC dealer's inventory as being a pig. Fair or not, that is what will happen.

 

I looked at your web site yesterday and actually looked to see if the non-CAC coins would have your usual disclaimer about why CAC didn't give them a sticker. I automatically assumed that the non-CAC coins were rejects. I highly doubt I am the only one.

 

It used to be "live by the slab, die by the slab". Some dealers apparently needed more pain, and whether intentional or not, they added "live by the sticker, die by the sticker".

Greg, one of the problems with the OP's assumption, is that just because a dealer is authorized to submit to CAC, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how much of his/her inventory consists of CAC coins or how much he/she submits to CAC. If the original post had said something like the following, instead, it would have made a lot more sense:" If any authorized CAC dealer who carries mostly CAC coins, has expensive coins without the CAC sticker, I'm going to assume they were submitted and rejected by CAC for some deficiency."

 

And you are free to assume whatever you wish regarding my non-CAC coins. However, that will often be an incorrect assumption on your part. If I submit a coin to CAC and it is rejected, I note it on my website. And I'm quite confident that nowhere near all of the non-CAC coins I buy have been previously rejected by CAC.

[gmarguli]

And you are free to assume whatever you wish regarding my non-CAC coins. However, that will often be an incorrect assumption on your part. If I submit a coin to CAC and it is rejected, I note it on my website.

 

If I assume it, I suspect others will assume it as well. It may end up costing you business.

 

 

[WinstonWare]

And you are free to assume whatever you wish regarding my non-CAC coins. However, that will often be an incorrect assumption on your part. If I submit a coin to CAC and it is rejected, I note it on my website.

 

If I assume it, I suspect others will assume it as well. It may end up costing you business.

 

I have assumed this about a different dealer’s inventory.

[Tradedollarnut]

I have one anecdotal observation about the CAC sticker process with respect to possible value of a coin and another anecdotal observation with respect to liquidity.

 

The first observation pertains to my 1892 Barber half in a PCGS OGH and graded MS66. This coin had been brought to Baltimore previously as part of show-and-tell and several folks who deal in coins of this type asked what I paid for the piece. I had paid approximately $6k for it, which is quite a bit higher than the approximately $4k that an overgraded, no eye appeal dog that has no business in a PCGS MS66 holder yet somehow finds itself in a PCGS MS66 holder would fetch. Folks thought this was strong, yet fair. Once the coin received a CAC gold sticker and was shown to those same folks, or others in the niche, the response was that this coin was worth $12k-$14k (dealer 1) and $15k (dealer 2). Therefore, I think the presence of the gold CAC sticker on this coin made dealers value it more in line with an MS67.

 

The other observation is in relation to liquidity and also happened at the last Baltimore show. I had offered a very nice type coin to two dealers who are high profile, but neither wanted the coin near Greysheet. I then brought the coin to Legend (a high profile CAC backer) and offered the coin to them. It was purchased immediately once they saw the CAC sticker and I received my price.

 

By the way, the CAC sticker process was done for free.

 

If TomB can get his coins done for free, why is BillJones always harping about the cost? Maybe he just likes to complain about things?

 

[Tradedollarnut]

I have assumed this about a different dealer’s inventory.

 

 

You can definitely assume such about Legend. All their coins in inventory are submitted to CAC and they usually only list the coins that receive the sticker. Every once in a while Laura will like a coin that JA rejects enough to keep it for inventory, but in such cases she reveals that it's been rejected in the writeup.