Cost to submit coins to CAC?

[Desert Gold]

I went onto CAC's website to find out how much it costs to submit coins and it listed To Be Determined (TBD) for all coin values. So what is the cost to submit a coin and does it change depending on the coin's value? They also mention that "Introductory pricing is still in effect." Do you think that prices will eventually go up from whatever they currently are? Thanks in advance for the information.

 

[Schatzy]

I thought it was $10 per coin.

[MarkFeld]

It's $10 per coin up to $10,000 in value, at which point it's $20 each. Yes, I think the price for the service will increase at some point.

[Desert Gold]

Thanks for the info!

[BillJones]

Wonderful!

 

More money down the drain for grading and postage! I HATE CAC!

[MarkFeld]

Wonderful!

 

More money down the drain for grading and postage! I HATE CAC!

You've made that clear on more than one occasion, Bill. If you feel that way, just don't use it. And please don't tell us that you have no choice, etc.

[mommam17]

I`ve seen less and less people with Bill`s feelings towards CAC. It is here to stay. It is needed. It is sucessful. It is not going away.

[gmarguli]

I`ve seen less and less people with Bill`s feelings towards CAC. It is here to stay. It is needed. It is sucessful. It is not going away.

 

Successful? I see VERY few CAC coins at shows. The number of CAC-only buyers is practically non-existent. Prices for CAC coins seem to be no better than non-CAC coins.

 

Maybe they sticker a ton of coins, but I don't see them or much (any) demand for them from a vast majority of the market.

[mommam17]

Maybe you are not seeing CAC coins at shows because collectors are holding on to these nice coins and not selling them. How about the coins that have been found to have PVC on them? Ask Orvelle about that. How about the doctored coins that they have found and been taken off the market? CAC is no doubt a success.

[gmarguli]

Maybe you are not seeing CAC coins at shows because collectors are holding on to these nice coins and not selling them.

 

I don't see many NTC, ACG, DCGS, etc coins at shows. Maybe because collectors are holding on to these nice coins and not selling them?

[TomB]

Maybe you are not seeing CAC coins at shows because collectors are holding on to these nice coins and not selling them.

 

I don't see many NTC, ACG, DCGS, etc coins at shows. Maybe because collectors are holding on to these nice coins and not selling them?

That was actually pretty darn funny, Greg. I don't travel to the west coast for shows, but here on the east coast I am seeing more and more CAC stickered slabs. This may simply be due to the proximity of these shows (and many of the collectors who attend these shows) with the physical location of CAC and of the CoinFest show where CAC evaluates coins for free. It is still early to decide if CAC will have more than a minor impact in the hobby-industry, but I am willing to give them a shot at the moment.

[mommam17]

The CAC coins have been looked at by one of the best eyes in the business. That`s a fact. The grading sevices you mentioned are suspect or new. You can`t compare them to CAC.

[BillJones]

Wonderful!

 

More money down the drain for grading and postage! I HATE CAC!

You've made that clear on more than one occasion, Bill. If you feel that way, just don't use it. And please don't tell us that you have no choice, etc.

 

The last big coin I purchased had a CAC sticker on it, and it probably cost me an extra $2,300 in auction bids because of it. The problem was the coin has a very low population and finding it in the condition and for once, the holder that suits me, has been very difficult. Another coin with a CAC sticker that I won in a mail bid auction had a major defect and had to go back to the auction house.

 

I have a perfect right to be unhappy with the fact that I will probably have to have my best coins re-graded by CAC after I spent years and many dollars getting them graded or finding them properly graded in holders. That’s just more money down the drain that could be used for reference books or more coins and tokens. When it comes to the certification of coins, once should be enough if you have had them certified by one of the two major services.

 

I really dislike censorship, Mark, and I resent the fact that you are telling me to shut up. Just because CAC has become a successful marketing tool for you and Legend’ does not give you the right to stifle dissent. I have just as much right to express my opinion as you do.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

mommam17, may I respectfully ask whether you only post on these boards with relation to CAC threads? Just curious - I'm not trying to be demeaning in any fashion. I just want to know what bias, if any, you may have. Thanks!

[MarkFeld]

Wonderful!

 

More money down the drain for grading and postage! I HATE CAC!

You've made that clear on more than one occasion, Bill. If you feel that way, just don't use it. And please don't tell us that you have no choice, etc.

 

The last big coin I purchased had a CAC sticker on it, and it probably cost me an extra $2,300 in auction bids because of it. The problem was the coin has a very low population and finding it in the condition and for once, the holder that suits me, has been very difficult. Another coin with a CAC sticker that I won in a mail bid auction had a major defect and had to go back to the auction house.

 

I have a perfect right to be unhappy with the fact that I will probably have to have my best coins re-graded by CAC after I spent years and many dollars getting them graded or finding them properly graded in holders. That’s just more money down the drain that could be used for reference books or more coins and tokens. When it comes to the certification of coins, once should be enough if you have had them certified by one of the two major services.

 

I really dislike censorship, Mark, and I resent the fact that you are telling me to shut up. Just because CAC has become a successful marketing tool for you and Legend’ does not give you the right to stifle dissent. I have just as much right to express my opinion as you do.

Bill, give me a break - I didn't tell you to shut up. And, though you have mentioned it more than once (including above, again), you DON'T have to have any of your coins evaluated by CAC. If you choose to do so, however, I guess it's because you're seeking greater liquidity and/or higher prices in the event that you decide to sell them. And if that's the case, I guess it's not necessarily "money down the drain" after all. I wish you'd make up your mind.

 

Edited to add: Yes you have the right to express your opinion. But you replied to this thread, complaining about CAC, without any regard to the question posed. At least I and some others tried to answer the question that was asked.

[MarkFeld]

I`ve seen less and less people with Bill`s feelings towards CAC. It is here to stay. It is needed. It is sucessful. It is not going away.

 

Successful? I see VERY few CAC coins at shows. The number of CAC-only buyers is practically non-existent. Prices for CAC coins seem to be no better than non-CAC coins.

 

Maybe they sticker a ton of coins, but I don't see them or much (any) demand for them from a vast majority of the market.

Greg, I see fairly large quantities of CAC stickered coins at most shows that I attend - roughly 15 per year - as well as in major coin auctions.

 

Regarding the prices - my observation is that in many cases, CAC stickered NGC coins trade on par with PCGS coins of the same grade. I think that's one significant indication of CAC's impact.

[BillJones]

I resent the fact that a so-called coin grading guru, with a bunch of disciples, can set himself up in a business with very little capital and offer an opinions only service that involves no financial risk to him. Yet his opinions and those who are associated with him carry the potential of lowering for value of every coin that has not received his service’s blessing. CAC offers no guarantees as to the grade of a coin or even its authenticity. If the coin does not measure up, and it’s got their seal of approval, it’s no problem for the CAC stakeholders.

 

If the CAC ownership were offering the Rolls Royce of grading services with all of the benefits and a full assumption of risk, I would not be critical. But all they are doing is looking at coin and deciding if it gets their sticker. And all that amounts to is no risk for them, but potential losses in value for those who are not playing their game.

 

[MarkFeld]

I resent the fact that a so-called coin grading guru, with a bunch of disciples, can set himself up in a business with very little capital and offer an opinions only service that involves no financial risk to him. Yet his opinions and those who are associated with him carry the potential of lowering for value of every coin that has not received his service’s blessing. CAC offers no guarantees as to the grade of a coin or even its authenticity. If the coin does not measure up, and it’s got their seal of approval, it’s no problem for the CAC stakeholders.

 

If the CAC ownership were offering the Rolls Royce of grading services with all of the benefits and a full assumption of risk, I would not be critical. But all they are doing is looking at coin and deciding if it gets their sticker. And all that amounts to is no risk for them, but potential losses in value for those who are not playing their game.

You made more than one misstatement of fact above. Among others, contrary to what you stated, CAC was set up with a large sum of capital - I believe 25 million dollars. They do offer guarantees, which they have backed up by taking coins off the market. And when that occurs, it can indeed be a "problem for the CAC stakeholders". Additionally, CAC posts numerous sight-unseen bids on CCE and risks getting stuck with coins that don't "measure up". Yes, you can express your opinion, but you really shouldn't distort the facts so badly.

[BillJones]

Yea, Mark we all know how far John Q. Public gets with a grading complaint to a grading serve. ZILCH! Those guarantees are for the Legends of world, not someone like me. When I get ready sell, it’s either sell it myself or work though a major auction house. It’s no fun being on the outside of the cartel.

 

And BTW on the one CAC coin that I sent back, I got a rooster and bull story about how a subsequent owner cracked it out for an upgrade. The coin had big mark in the field and yet was graded AU-50 with a CAC sticker. Give me a break! If I had tried to shop that coin at show as an AU-50, I would have been a laughing stock. And yes the coin was a scarce one. It was 1796 "LIKERTY" half dime in PCGS holder at @ $12,000 to me.

[MarkFeld]

Bill, please feel free to go ahead and feel bitter and complain. And don't let any facts get in your way.

[BillJones]

How many grading arbitration claims have you won with a grading service, Mark?

 

If authenticity is the issue, you might win, but grading, it’s just an opinion.

[mommam17]

James- I am a commem collector that has followed these boards, the PCGS boards and the Ebay boards for years. I post on other subjects besides CAC. I do not have any association with CAC, other than having my coins submitted to CAC.

[Mark T]

I`ve seen less and less people with Bill`s feelings towards CAC. It is here to stay. It is needed. It is sucessful. It is not going away.

 

Successful? I see VERY few CAC coins at shows. The number of CAC-only buyers is practically non-existent. Prices for CAC coins seem to be no better than non-CAC coins.

 

Maybe they sticker a ton of coins, but I don't see them or much (any) demand for them from a vast majority of the market.

 

 

From what I see prices for CAC coins are priced higher by 10 – 15 % on average.

Saying that you don’t see many CAC coins at coins shows and using that reasoning to consider CAC as unsuccessful is flawed logic.

Here is another way to look at it , the reason you see so few CAC coins at shows might be because a small percentage of coins can get into a CAC Holder. As more people submit you will see more coming into the market. Just do some simple math and look at the percentages and maybe you will re think you assumption.

 

[PerryHall]

I`ve seen less and less people with Bill`s feelings towards CAC. It is here to stay. It is needed. It is sucessful. It is not going away.

 

Successful? I see VERY few CAC coins at shows. The number of CAC-only buyers is practically non-existent. Prices for CAC coins seem to be no better than non-CAC coins.

 

Maybe they sticker a ton of coins, but I don't see them or much (any) demand for them from a vast majority of the market.

 

I've had the same experience. Can someone provide a list of dealers that specialize in CAC coins?

[gmarguli]

Greg, I see fairly large quantities of CAC stickered coins at most shows that I attend - roughly 15 per year - as well as in major coin auctions.

 

I'm sure we look at the same auctions. With the exception of Heritage, which submits all(?) the coins to CAC as a marketing gimmick, and possibly has an ownership stake in CAC just like their "rumored" stakes in some TPG, I cannot recall seeing any significant quantity of CAC coins in an auction.

 

I would also not look at auctions - at the present time - as a good indicator of CAC success. We have no idea what percentage of the coins were CACed as a marketing gimmick/competitive advantage by the auction house. We also don't know if CAC approached the auction houses to put CAC stickers on slabs.

 

At the recent Long Beach show I looked thru most cases and with the exception of a few dealers who had large quantities of CAC coins, I saw very few of them on the floor. Now perhaps they - along with the NTC graded coins - were all snapped up by rabid collectors before I got there?

[physics-fan3.14]

I've had the same experience. Can someone provide a list of dealers that specialize in CAC coins?

 

http://www.caccoin.com/submission-centers/

[Mark T]

I wonder if there was this much dissent when the grading services were evolving 20 plus years ago. Correct me if I am wrong but CAC was formed to distinguish poorly graded coins from properly graded coins. Not all coins need a CAC sticker to be considered PQ, and not all collectors or dealers need that sticker to determine the same. However it sure does help to have another set of eyes look at a PCGS or NGC coin and determine if the grade assigned is correct from one of the best in the business. You need to take into consideration the amount of site unseen buying because of the Internet. I give CAC the thumbs up , but then I am open minded about this and not jaded as one might get if they were a dealer or someone very active in the hobby over the last 20 plus years. I look forward to bringing my newly purchased coins to COIN FEST for CAC certification. It adds a little more excitement to the hobby

[DC Dawg]

Greg, I see fairly large quantities of CAC stickered coins at most shows that I attend - roughly 15 per year - as well as in major coin auctions.

I don't usually agree with Mark on these matters, but on this one I have to agree with him. I saw a significant amount of CAC stickered coins this past weekend in Baltimore. When I sat at the Bowers and Merena table looking at some auction lots, I think all but one coin was CAC stickered.

 

Since I decided to change some collecting goals, most of what I am looking for does not qualify for CAC (e.g., Israeli currency)

 

I resent the fact that a so-called coin grading guru, with a bunch of disciples, can set himself up in a business with very little capital and offer an opinions only service that involves no financial risk to him. Yet his opinions and those who are associated with him carry the potential of lowering for value of every coin that has not received his service’s blessing. CAC offers no guarantees as to the grade of a coin or even its authenticity. If the coin does not measure up, and it’s got their seal of approval, it’s no problem for the CAC stakeholders.

Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism. As long as the profession has no professional licensing requirements, anyone can hang a shingle, call themselves an expert, and sell their service. It is up to you, as the consumer, to accept or reject their work.

 

If the CAC ownership were offering the Rolls Royce of grading services with all of the benefits and a full assumption of risk, I would not be critical. But all they are doing is looking at coin and deciding if it gets their sticker. And all that amounts to is no risk for them, but potential losses in value for those who are not playing their game.

The wonderful world of capitalism is a two-way street. If you do not like it, don't buy the coin. If the price is too high, don't over pay, just leave it on the table. If enough people do that, then whatever perceived premium they allegedly command will diminish. Voting with your wallet is the best way to make your feelings known.

 

As an aside, if you read this page, there is a statement on the left size under "WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS" that says, "Guaranteed. CAC stands behind our verification by making markets in most actively traded coins." Also, on this page, Albanese says, "We offer a buy-back guarantee. If I agree that the coin shouldn’t be labeled, I take it off the market, remove the label and sell it for a loss."

 

There are two problems with these statements: (1) There is no stated guarantee on their terms of service. Implied guarantees are a slippery slope. The terms of any guarantee should be clearly stated or they are just asking for trouble. If you have any doubts, look up the word "guarantee" for the site. For assistance, you can click here to take you to Google that will search for guarantee site:caccoin.com.

 

(2) The statement "If I agree that the coin shouldn't be labeled..." is putting his opinion over others. In a legal situation, I can parade the experts from the grading service that slabbed the coin to controvert his opinion. The expert versus expert sparring is done all of the time. Look at the case of Langboard v. US Mint on the ten 1933 Double Eagles Joan Langboard found in her father's, Israel Switt, belongings. In that case, lawyers argued that Q. David Bowers is not a sufficient expert for this case and had no material information in support or against the claim! When there are competing experts that provide credible testimony, the court my discount any aspects of that part of a case as being equal because it cannot be determined if there was an injured party. If an expert is controverted on the record, it will be used as precedence at least through the next three years (statute of limitations).

 

The business risk here is phenomenal! Albanese is creating a market based on his "say so" with the recourse based on his "say so." This may not technically violate antitrust laws but it may fall under the "Rule of Reason" alleging that CAC's actions are tantamount to price fixing and market manipulation. Although I am looking at it from a policy perspective since I am not an attorney, one could look at market trends, interviews with those involved with CAC, and some of the perceived conflicts of interest that surround CAC to being to begin form a case alleging a market fixing conspiracy to claim that the CAC may be in violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act.

 

This might be an interesting case to pursue. Too bad I have not bought any CAC stickered coins!

 

Scott

 

[gmarguli]

When I sat at the Bowers and Merena table looking at some auction lots, I think all but one coin was CAC stickered.

 

Funny you should pick this one. Before my reply I went to the B&M site and picked the most recent auction and did a search for CAC. Came up with 3.6% of the lots stickered.

[DC Dawg]

When I sat at the Bowers and Merena table looking at some auction lots, I think all but one coin was CAC stickered.

 

Funny you should pick this one. Before my reply I went to the B&M site and picked the most recent auction and did a search for CAC. Came up with 3.6% of the lots stickered.

Maybe it was the six coins I looked at... only five were stickered.

 

Scott