question on older PCGS holders

[BRIAN339]

I would like to know if the older coins in PCGS holders are the best candidates for grade upgrades.

 

I purchased this a short while ago and I was thinking of cracking it out to see if it would grade higher. I just dont know enough about these things yet.

 

[WinstonWare]

In theory yes. In practice, your results will be best if you can grade the coin rather than rely on the old holder theory.

[physics-fan3.14]

The short answer is no, probably not. The more nuanced answer is, maybe, but its probably not worth it. There is a myth that these slabs were very conservatively graded and that any coin in them is a lock for an upgrade - and this is just not true. Yes, many coins were conservatively graded, and just as many were loosely graded. Its the same situation today. Most of the ones that were worth upgrading have already been cracked.

 

There is also the fact that you will often get a decent premium for the older holders. Whether this is due to scarcity and people want the holder itself, or because there is some bigger sucker who thinks they can upgrade it for a nice profit is a matter of debate.

[bsshog40]

I've always heard that the Rattler series had more conservatively graded coins in them.?

[robec1347]

The difference in the value between an MS65 and MS66 is about $20. Grading fees and postage would eat that up in a hurry. Hardly worth a regrade, unless you got a 2 point upgrade.

[123cents]

I would like to know if the older coins in PCGS holders are the best candidates for grade upgrades.

 

Some are and other are not. Each coin should be judged on its own merits.

[TomB]

In general, the body of grading was slightly more conservative in this era. However, it is my opinion that a significant percentage of those coins that were worth having regraded and that have traded through dealer inventories have already been cracked out. This leaves below average or average coins for the grade, those not worth the financial considerations to have regraded and those special coins that have been holed away in collections over the years as the lion's share of pieces left in old holders.

 

You need to learn much more.

[coinman1794]

I would like to know if the older coins in PCGS holders are the best candidates for grade upgrades.

 

I purchased this a short while ago and I was thinking of cracking it out to see if it would grade higher. I just dont know enough about these things yet.

 

 

It's true that grading standards were different in the early days of certification, but different translates into both overgraded and undergraded coins, so holder style means nothing. The best way to tell if a coin is undergraded is to examine the coin (not the plactic), and formulate an honest opinion about what it should grade. I dont mean to sound simple by saying that. I mean it ~ a novice collector can have pretty good results by comparing coins and picking the absolute nicest for the grade. A coin with a couple noticably scratches in an old holder 64 slab is not going to grade 65. A coin in an old 64 slab that seems unmarked and has great luster, making it stand out from other 64s, is probably upgrade-able. Learning what the current tolerances of a grading service are for each grade will help you pick out the ones that are wrong.

[michael]

all depends on the coin inside the holder

 

show me the coin sight seen and then i can tell you either way

[michael]

In general, the body of grading was slightly more conservative in this era. However, it is my opinion that a significant percentage of those coins that were worth having regraded and that have traded through dealer inventories have already been cracked out. This leaves below average or average coins for the grade, those not worth the financial considerations to have regraded and those special coins that have been holed away in collections over the years as the lion's share of pieces left in old holders.

 

You need to learn much more.

 

or for the longer answer as per the above (thumbs u

[James_OldeTowne]

Years ago, I bought (and still own) an untouched hoard of coins in old holders - about 200 total. Normally, this is something I woudn't think of buying because I just don't generally care for such things. However, what made this lot interesting to me is that the coins were bought pretty much at random by a very novice numismatist, meaning that they likely represent a truly random sampling of what was on the market in slabs in 1988 - 1993 (or thereabouts). They are almost all common coins, spanning all non-gold denominations, and including mostly 20th century issues.

 

To make a long story short, I believe certified grading was indeed more conservative on average 15 - 20 years ago. Now hear me out, because prior to my acquisition of this hoard, I vehemently denied the "myth". But this, combined with experience in cataloging many hundreds more such slabs from what are fairly reliably old-time holdings have convinced me that those old grading standards were more conservative. I don't think it's fair to say everything was a full point lower then, but 1/3 of a point on average is probably about right.

 

Fast-forward 15 years or so, and you have today's situation. In the intervening time, many dealers realized this and cracked out and upgraded just about every undergraded coin there was in those old slabs. I believe this crack-and-upgade process was so rampant that it has depleted the vast majority of undergraded coins, and a very fair fraction of the correctly-graded coins to a great extent. What we are left with today is quite the opposite of what I described earlier: I would contend that very few undergraded coins remain in old holders, and in fact, there are many overgraded coins in those holders.

 

Dealers realize this today as well, and the stigma has done a complete about face. As an example, "OGH", which used to carry a positive connotation of "old green holder", is sometimes derisively used to mean "over-graded holder", since such a dispropotionate number of coins in those slabs are now overgraded.

 

So in general, for the typical coin in an old holder in the typical dealer's inventory, I'd say don't bother. Your odds are low of scoring an upgrade, since it's likely to be un-upgradable slabs that have been pawned off from dealer to dealer. But if you can stumble into an old collector's hoard, you may find some hidden gems.

[Mark T]

The PCGS retail price for a1938-D Buffalo is $ 60 , the next grade up is $80.

Your cost to send this in would be more then $ 20 . People don’t crack out coins for an increase in value of $ 20 .

As Tom said you have a lot to learn. Seeing your other post about the Morgan Dollar you purchased solidifies that assessment. I am not trying to be a Donkey (can’t post the real word here) but it would be a good idea if you would at least start with understanding what you are buying. There are many good resources. You could start with the NGC and PCGS web sites.

As a generalization about the older PCGS graded coins , others here have explained it perfectly.

 

 

[realone]

All i can add is the following little story.

As I stood in one of the only B&M's in my little town in the Pacific NW looking through the dealers 2x2's an old timer walked in with a box of slabbed coins. He told the dealer that hsi kids weren't interested and he drove up from Northern California and had a desire to get rid of all his coins. They were all pcgs ogh's, had the same very original look and he stated that they were from the 80's. The dealer unfortunately whipped out the blue sheets and paid him those prices in mere minutes. As the old time collector left the store i asked if i could see the collection and buy those coins that interest me. The answer that I received was a resounding yes, a smile crossed the dealer's face, out came the grey sheets and I paid lower grey sheet for the coins that interested me. i should have bought them all but didn't have 425k at the time on me, nor was willing to spend that amount at that time, too bad for that decision. I did end up however buying the following:

1875-s 20c ms64, totally orignal and undergraded by one point.

1876 10c ms65, ditto with great toning to boot.

1909-d $5 ms63, ditto.

1864 ms65 RED ditto.

1858 3CS ms65, ditto.

 

Then I came back the next day to buy the remainder but they were all gone except for 2 morgans which I ended up buying too.

 

Talk about fresh and undergraded, vavavoom!

 

 

[Coindude]

One thing that I've noticed, and maybe it's just me. Everyone assumes that the rattlers are a great way to cherry pick. Everyone thinks that every coin that was put into one of those holders is undergraded by at least one point. The fact is, they aren't. Don't get me wrong here, because there are some that were, but then again there were some that were overgraded. Kinda like today's slabbings. There are some that are undergraded and there are those that are over. Was there a higher percentage that was undergraded? If you listen to all the old timers, yep, you'd have to agree that there were. But the thing here is that the "old timers" have been cherry picking these suckers for years and years. Not just the last couple of years but decades. Now, what percentage of rattlers do you think are overgraded? The ones that were are most likely in OGH's or in new blue holders. Everyone looks for a windfall, but as stated above the grade difference of one point just isn't going to make it for you.

 

Hope I made sense.

[Treeman]

Every time I bring this up ATS, I get jumped on, but...

It seems to me that 65/66 depends on the whim of the grader(s) at the time they look at it. The same coin, if cracked out and resubmitted, may come back a full grade different. I have seen, and even purchased, coins in a "66" slab, that is realistically a "65". Of course, when I do purchase said coin, it is because of outstanding eye appeal. I think the graders do the same thing, so I guess it all works out. To me, an outstanding (eye appeal) 65 is worth more than an average (eye appeal) 66. Same applies to 66/67... As for 69/70, don't even get me started :-)

[James_OldeTowne]

I should mention one more thing. Older slabs are in my mind an excellent way to buy copper, since the color can be presumed stable for such coins. In other words, if a rattler or no-line NGC holder has a "RD" designation, and the coin is still obviously red, you can safely assume it is stable. It is unlikely to suddenly turn. Sadly, I have seen an awful lot of old (and new) holders where the copper coin has toned down from the designated color, and you want to stay far away from those problems. You can rest assured something has been done to those, and slabs with a "RD" designation but a turned coin are about the worst "investements" you can make.

[Mark T]

I have 5 Silver dollars in the old PCGS holders that I purchased in 1987. Two Morgan’s and 3 Peace dollars that I paid 3 times what they are worth today . Lucky for me they were only common dates .

[MBA101]

I have 3 OGH's.

 

One 1810 CBH graded AU 50 that would probably 55 today

One 1812/1 CBH graded AU 50 that would probably 53 today

One 1830 CBH graded AU 55 that would probably grade 45 or maybe 50 today

 

 

Another note, the NGC holders are supposed to protect coins from the elements better than the PCGS holders. Granted there may not have been enough time to prove this yet, but when you talk of coins turning, how many were in NGC holders, and how many in PCGS holders?

[prudden]

Here's one from the other side,Supposedly.No way of knowing if it's a true story and anyone who sends out a green label DMPL to NGC is nuts(IMO). So,it goes from 64 DMPL to 64 PL.I think I would have sent it back for a review.

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1882-CC-MORGAN-NGC-MS64-PL-dmpl-DEEP-MIRROR-PROOFLIKE_W0QQitemZ250421808673QQihZ015QQcategoryZ39465QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[BillJones]

In general the old "rattle" holders were supposed to be more conservatively graded, BUT not all of them were. In fact a lot of the under graded coins in these holders have already been cracked out and regraded. I had a group of four gold pieces graded many years ago that were in these holders. Later I cracked out two of the four and got upgrades on both. One up graded from AU-58 to MS-63. Another went from MS-64 to MS-65 (Ca-Ching! ) I also traded a third piece for a coin I wanted at a very favorable rate.

 

According dealers I know who have been in the business for a long time PCGS graded conservatively for most of the "rattle holder' era, BUT they have told me that there was a brief period when their grading got lose. So ... the "old holder" theory has some support, but it's far from fool proof.

[prudden]

In general the old "rattle" holders were supposed to be more conservatively graded, BUT not all of them were. In fact a lot of the under graded coins in these holders have already been cracked out and regraded. I had a group of four gold pieces graded many years ago that were in these holders. Later I cracked out two of the four and got upgrades on both. One up graded from AU-58 to MS-63. Another went from MS-64 to MS-65 (Ca-Ching! ) I also traded a third piece for a coin I wanted at a very favorable rate.

 

According dealers I know who have been in the business for a long time PCGS graded conservatively for most of the "rattle holder' era, BUT they have told me that there was a brief period when their grading got lose. So ... the "old holder" theory has some support, but it's far from fool proof.

 

Yeah James.I meant to put in my post that this was only a single example.In general even though I haven't seen a 10th of what you have, I do think the coins in older green label slabs even look better even when they don't grade higher.

[bartlesvilleok]

does anyone else think that PCGS label look funny? Looks more like a newer label not one that was used in the rattle holders.

[coinman1794]

The green label slabs come in many varieties, and not all are rattlers.

[coinman1794]

Here's one from the other side,Supposedly.No way of knowing if it's a true story and anyone who sends out a green label DMPL to NGC is nuts(IMO). So,it goes from 64 DMPL to 64 PL.I think I would have sent it back for a review.

 

It depends on the proper designation for the specific coin in question. Maybe the coin isnt DMPL.

[RI AL]

Just curious, I notice that Teletrade has a special section for "old labels"...I assumed it referred to rattlers and green label PCGS pieces...don't know if it includes NGC "fatties". Generally speaking, does anyone know if these generally sell for a premium on the teletrade auctions?

 

RI AL

[Conder101]

does anyone else think that PCGS label look funny? Looks more like a newer label not one that was used in the rattle holders.

No that s definitely from either the first generation Rattler holder (or the first "Slab within a slab" holders and someone has broken away the outer plastic band. Can't tell without seeing the back.).

 

It has the dot matrix printing, the perforated edges on the label and it doesn't say PCGS at the top center of the label. That is only found on the first two slab varieties

[Boba]

I just dont know enough about these things yet.

 

I'll say. So how's my 1901 proof you disparaged I refunded your money and you did not return?

[Coindude]

I just dont know enough about these things yet.

I'll say. So how's my 1901 proof you disparaged I refunded your money and you did not return?

Hmmm, i was wondering how that all panned out. Personally, I would highly recommend returning the coin.

[Boba]

I may have, in a fit, said to shove them, but I would have returned the coin if the shoe were on the other foot. Especially since you admit you don't know all that much about these things. We learn...

[bartlesvilleok]

does anyone else think that PCGS label look funny? Looks more like a newer label not one that was used in the rattle holders.

No that s definitely from either the first generation Rattler holder (or the first "Slab within a slab" holders and someone has broken away the outer plastic band. Can't tell without seeing the back.).

 

It has the dot matrix printing, the perforated edges on the label and it doesn't say PCGS at the top center of the label. That is only found on the first two slab varieties

 

Wow I fell dumb now. I was looking at the link to the ebay auction that Prudden posted not the first photo.