1964 SMS Roosevelt in upcoming auction

[Just Bob]

Not something you see every day.

 

Link

[Schatzy]

WOW.....sure something to look at!! Don't worry Bob, I wont bid against you!!

[Coindude]

It's quite possible that you can get quite a deal on this coin in today's coin market. Although, this could be one of those coins that doesn't take a hit in this kind of coin market. I'd like to hear other opinions on this subject.

[Schatzy]

There is only 22 graded and I bet it will still hit 3 grand!!

[physics-fan3.14]

But its not FT!

[braddick]

Other than being told what the coin is, an SMS from 1964, is the dime itself really that impressive?

[Schatzy]

There is only a few known 1964 SMS coins, these likely struck as tests in late 1964 for the new 1965 SMS strikings.

 

 

[Coindude]

Other than being told what the coin is, an SMS from 1964, is the dime itself really that impressive?

Every one of the SMS coins I have ever seen from 1964 are really not that appealing. I think the only thing that's appealing about them is the fact that there were less than 20 minted. Other than that, I'm with you on the look, not appealing at all and I'd rather have a couple of deep cam SMS coins than those... but again, that's just me.

[MarkFeld]

Other than being told what the coin is, an SMS from 1964, is the dime itself really that impressive?

Every one of the SMS coins I have ever seen from 1964 are really not that appealing. I think the only thing that's appealing about them is the fact that there were less than 20 minted. Other than that, I'm with you on the look, not appealing at all and I'd rather have a couple of deep cam SMS coins than those... but again, that's just me.

I agree that they are unimpressive looking, and the sames goes for the other denominations of the 1964 SMS coins I have seen. That said, I still think they're sort of neat, due to their rarity and the mystery that surrounds them.

[World Colonial]

How different do these and other SMS coins look from proofs? Or are these more like PL issues? I cannot remember if I have ever looked at them in person and if I have, it has been a very long time.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

How different do these and other SMS coins look from proofs? Or are these more like PL issues? I cannot remember if I have ever looked at them in person and if I have, it has been a very long time.

 

They look nothing like Proofs and in fact, bear little resemblance to typical PL/SMS coins. They are somewhat of a hybrid between a typical business strike and an SMS coin. I believe that most people would not know these coins were anything different/special unless told in advance, and then examined them with that in mind.

[Coindude]

Totally true there Mark. The 64 SMS'ers are more flat in appearance, not brilliant. As for the SMS years, the earliest strikes are almost proof in the cameo quality, although the mirrors are a bit softer. Not so much on the 67 issues but the first two years had a steep learning curve. Plus, these coins were not handled the same way, the planchets were handled differently... you can go on and on about how sms issues differ from proof sets.

 

I'm sure the 64 sms coins were handled one by one since there were so few. I wonder if these should be considered more of a pattern coin than and SMS. SMS coins are much like the early 50's coins where only the first strikes were desirable and the dies turned brilliant quickly and then quite flat not too much later.

[World Colonial]

The last two responses once again completely baffle me on what seems to be outsized appeal on these issues as with several other narrow rarities covered in prior threads. If the coins (or at least some or many of them) are not particularly eye appealing and are not readily distinguishable from business srikes except by those who know what to look for in advance, then the only appeal I can see in them is that there are relatively few of them.

 

And once again, the price (whether the $1150 I saw as the current bid on Heritage in the link provided or the $3000 referenced as a potential closing price) makes as much sense to me as for other coins with narrow definitions of rarity whether conditional rarities, most die varieties or coins with a particular eye appeal.

 

Perhaps I would understand it if I were a collector of Roosevelt dimes but I am not.

 

 

[braddick]

I remember the one and only PCGS MS68 'business strike' 1964 Kennedy and seeing it at Long Beach back in the real early 1990's.

 

It later went into an NGC 69 slab as either a presentation or SMS.

 

Admittedly, that coin looked pretty cool because it did have business strike characteristics yet was virtually mark free and the strike was awesome.

 

-The price tag was too!

I don't know what happened to that particular Kennedy but would speculate it made its way BACK into a PCGS holder but this time with the SMS designation.

 

Still, had it remained in the original OGH MS68 it would have been and always will be the only 68 and the points it would give in the Registry! ::Sheesh:: Makes me wonder if it would have been just as if not more valuable than an SMS.

[EZ_E]

Good info, Sam. I'm also not too impressed with the coin's appearance and could probably not tell the difference in hand. The same was/is true for matte proof Lincolns.

 

I did find this quote interesting, though.

 

Most if not all of the 1964 SMS coins appear to have entered the marketplace through the estate of Mint Director Eva Adams, who held the post from 1961 through 1969, and thence to the estate of Lester Merkin and a series of Stack's sales in the early 1990s.

[Coindude]

Good info there Vic, that is something I did not know about the coins. Thanks!

[AegisIII]

I did find this quote interesting, though.

 

Most if not all of the 1964 SMS coins appear to have entered the marketplace through the estate of Mint Director Eva Adams (1), who held the post from 1961 through 1969, and thence to the estate of Lester Merkin (2) and a series of Stack's sales in the early 1990s (3).

 

The question, is how much of that can we believe?

 

Numbering the claims, point (3) we can accept. "Special" 1964 proof sets were offered in some early/mid 90's Stack's sales. Ones I have include June 1991, March 1993, and September 1993. I did not obtain these catalogs because of the SMS sets, and frankly I have very few of the catalogs, so I am sure I am missing numerous appearances.

 

Point 2, Stack's November/December 1994 sale included in part the estate of Lester Merkin. This catalog did not include any of the special sets, but it did include a 1964 half dollar. It was not called special in any way. It is of course possible that other sales also included other parts of his state, whether mentioned or not. However, Merkin died in 1992, and this is after the coins first started appearing in the Stack's sales. Pending further evidence, I see no reason to accept a Lester Merkin connection to these coins.

 

Point 1, none of the Stack's catalogs mention an Eva Adams connection. This includes the Merkin catalog. Certain of Adams's coins (1964-era clad coinage semi-private patterns) were included in Bowers and Merena's May 1994 sale. This sale does not include any of the special 1964 coinage. Frankly, I find it unlikely that former mint official would divide consignments among auction houses like some collectors have been known to do. At present, I see no reason to accept an Eva Adams collection connection at this time.

 

Open questions, IMO:

 

1) Just what is the Stack's connection? Were they mere consignments from the early 1990's, did they get them from a recent for the time non-numismatic auction, did they come out of their vaults from times unknown, or something else?

 

1a) Does Stack's have any more 1964 sets in their vaults?

 

1b) Has anyone bothered asking Harvey Stack about these sets?

 

2) What do the hub varieties of the coins tell us as to when they were struck? At minimum, the dimes, quarters, and halves of 1964 were struck using different hubs, this should tell us something.

 

3) Where were they struck? Arguments could be made for both Philadelphia and San Francisco.

 

4) Are they overhyped? In Bowers and Merena's June 2002 (Edmunds) sale, John Kraljevich hypothesized about the dime issue (and I assume by extension the other issues) that it is a coin struck from unfinished proof dies, similar I suppose to the 1999-W gold eagle issues. As such it would not be a pattern or an experiment for the 1965-67 SMS sets. I'm not convinced either way, but I think it should be brought up.

 

 

[EZ_E]

So sorry, Sam, AegisIII inched ahead of you in the informative post category.

 

Outstanding, well-researched post. But I liked the other story better. What's wrong with a little rewriting of history, eh? The ancient Chinese even did it. :þ

[Coindude]

Vic, not only did I get surpassed, I got spanked! And it's my boys birthday.... why I gotta get spanked!!

[MarkFeld]

I did find this quote interesting, though.

 

Most if not all of the 1964 SMS coins appear to have entered the marketplace through the estate of Mint Director Eva Adams (1), who held the post from 1961 through 1969, and thence to the estate of Lester Merkin (2) and a series of Stack's sales in the early 1990s (3).

 

The question, is how much of that can we believe?

 

Numbering the claims, point (3) we can accept. "Special" 1964 proof sets were offered in some early/mid 90's Stack's sales. Ones I have include June 1991, March 1993, and September 1993. I did not obtain these catalogs because of the SMS sets, and frankly I have very few of the catalogs, so I am sure I am missing numerous appearances.

 

Point 2, Stack's November/December 1994 sale included in part the estate of Lester Merkin. This catalog did not include any of the special sets, but it did include a 1964 half dollar. It was not called special in any way. It is of course possible that other sales also included other parts of his state, whether mentioned or not. However, Merkin died in 1992, and this is after the coins first started appearing in the Stack's sales. Pending further evidence, I see no reason to accept a Lester Merkin connection to these coins.

 

Point 1, none of the Stack's catalogs mention an Eva Adams connection. This includes the Merkin catalog. Certain of Adams's coins (1964-era clad coinage semi-private patterns) were included in Bowers and Merena's May 1994 sale. This sale does not include any of the special 1964 coinage. Frankly, I find it unlikely that former mint official would divide consignments among auction houses like some collectors have been known to do. At present, I see no reason to accept an Eva Adams collection connection at this time.

 

Open questions, IMO:

 

1) Just what is the Stack's connection? Were they mere consignments from the early 1990's, did they get them from a recent for the time non-numismatic auction, did they come out of their vaults from times unknown, or something else?

 

1a) Does Stack's have any more 1964 sets in their vaults?

 

1b) Has anyone bothered asking Harvey Stack about these sets?

 

2) What do the hub varieties of the coins tell us as to when they were struck? At minimum, the dimes, quarters, and halves of 1964 were struck using different hubs, this should tell us something.

 

3) Where were they struck? Arguments could be made for both Philadelphia and San Francisco.

 

4) Are they overhyped? In Bowers and Merena's June 2002 (Edmunds) sale, John Kraljevich hypothesized about the dime issue (and I assume by extension the other issues) that it is a coin struck from unfinished proof dies, similar I suppose to the 1999-W gold eagle issues. As such it would not be a pattern or an experiment for the 1965-67 SMS sets. I'm not convinced either way, but I think it should be brought up.

 

I believe quite a bit of that. I do not have the catalogs, but have been told by reliable sources that many or most of the coins did indeed come from Lester Merkin's estate. I am guessing that either not all of the coins were so identified when sold by Stack's, and/or they were attributed to Mr. Merkin's estate, but were not listed as SMS coins in the catalog(s). I was a grader at NGC (from 1991-1998) at the time a number of the coins were submitted for grading.

 

Also, the fact that Eva Adams (supposedly) owned the coins at one time doesn't mean that they couldn't have been sold privately, years before they ended up being auctioned by Stack's via public auction. And in such a case, there wouldn't necessarily be any documentation or mention of the Adams connection.

 

My money IS on an Adams and Merkin connection.

[BECOKA]

There are some inaccuracies in this thread. These are easily distinguishable from a business strike. All the SMS '64 Rosy's have heavy die polish lines that are visible to the naked eye, well at least if you have young 20/20 vision.

 

This is a very unique coin and is very cool at least to me for the circumstances surrounding it's existence and the look of the coin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Ben, I don't recall anyone saying that the coins couldn't be distinguished from Business strikes. However, a number of us feel that they aren't especially impressive/special looking. And I still maintain that most people would not notice that the coins were different, if they examined them in the normal course of buying and selling.

[MarkFeld]

In glancing at the catalog tonight, I noticed that there are other denominations of the 1964 SMS coins in the sale, as well. I think I saw everything other than the Half Dollar.

[robec1347]

In glancing at the catalog tonight, I noticed that there are other denominations of the 1964 SMS coins in the sale, as well. I think I saw everything other than the Half Dollar.

 

There is one of those also.

1964 SMS Kennedy

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Sweet. I would really like to own the half dollar. Could one of you maybe buy it for me?

[robec1347]

Sweet. I would really like to own the half dollar. Could one of you maybe buy it for me?

 

Let me check my mortgage and I'll get back to you.